View Poll Results: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

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  • Yes, unions killed Detroit

    19 40.43%
  • No, unions are not at fault

    28 59.57%
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Thread: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

  1. #41
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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I know it's easy to see things from that prism, especially if you hold strong conservative values, but pension funds whether corporate or government run don't bankrupt cities. Mismanagement does! Lack of adaptation i.e., not changing your city zoning or revamping enterprise zones) does! Refusing to change your financial structures (local tax codes) does! All of these things led to Detroit's demise. Anyone who thinks unions are to blame are just playing to their own politically ideological bend.
    Exactly. It comes down to mismanagement of funds. So, you frame the argument as such and such is bad. Which is circular logic because to state a conclusion and automatically say the outcome is because of said conclusion is a logical fallacy. If the funds were handled responsibly, if the entire world economy did not take a major hit during the sub-prime meltdown, if LIBOR was not manipulated, if city officials did not make sweet heart deals etc, etc... we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But, a whole lot of corruption happened and we found a scapegoat.

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Michigan very recently became a right to work state, they in effect shut the barn door after the horses were gone.
    Right, because according to you if there were no unions then this would have never happened.

  3. #43
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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Then there's nothing I or anyone can say to you to change your perspective on the matter since you've so firmly entrenched in the one facet your believe was the singular cause of the Detroit's economic downfall. It's sad really. Until you and others are willing to accept that there were other factors involved in how this proverbial cat was skinned, you'll hold true to your single-minded templated, ideological view point.

    In short, you want to blame unions because you don't like them. But the truth is union benefits were NOT the only reason the city of Detroit fell apart.
    They were not the only reason but at least half was firmly their doing. Detroit's gov't was doing pretty much what the federal gov't is doing now, borrowing/spending money that they had no intention of repaying via direct taxation. As the tax base fell, the gov't spending did not, they kidded themselves (we hope?) into thinking that some magical gov't program was going to turn things around fast enough that nobody would notice (or they were out of office, drawing ther own cushy gov't retirement checks).
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    At a time when the auto industry is bouncing back Detroit goes bust? Maybe because auto manufacturers have moved to right to work states? Maybe because public unions in Detroit have wage and benefit packages that are out of hand? There is a lesson here, learn it.


    It is not because of Unions at all.


    If you own a BMW, Mercedes or Volkswagon you are driving a Union vehicle. German carmakers are killing American car makers and German car companies are the most unionized companies in the entire world. They even have corporate unions for their white collar workers..


    So no, it has nothing to do with Unions. At all. It DOES have something to do with something else, on the human level though.


    Do read into what I'm saying.



    On a side note. It is hilarious to watch some anti union American rant about how horrible unions are then brag about their German Union BMW or Mercedes car that is a full blown Union vehicle made my Union members.
    Last edited by Ryan5; 07-21-13 at 04:56 PM.

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan5 View Post
    Do read into what I'm saying.
    Why? Don't tell me you've bought into that NSA nonsense.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Fair point and maybe the poll should have asked if unions were the deciding factor not the cause all by themselves but then again you may be nit picking here.
    You asked a question and provided two possible causes for Detroit's economic downfall. I fail to see how you could characterize me as being "nit picky" for suggesting that multiple factors could have led to the city's current financial woes.
    "A fair exchange ain't no robbery." Tupac Shakur w/Digital Underground

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    At a time when the auto industry is bouncing back Detroit goes bust? Maybe because auto manufacturers have moved to right to work states? Maybe because public unions in Detroit have wage and benefit packages that are out of hand? There is a lesson here, learn it.



    Poor management bankrupted Detroit

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    Have there been any other major cities under strictly Democratic leadership as long as Detroit has been?
    Yep. Buffalo, New York has not had a single Republican Mayor since 1965.


    11/8/16: A day of great relief for America

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Why? Don't tell me you've bought into that NSA nonsense.

    The world is full of contradictions.


    In America we have people who hate unions proudly driving BMW's and Mercedes, the two biggest unionized cars on the planet. The irony is huge in that there is a very high likelihood that said anti union Americans BMW or Mercedes was built by a German who is a union member. So the idiot is driving a German Union car designed and originally funded by Hitler and is on his/her way to an 'Anti Union Rally'. Oh yes.

    And let's not forget the 'hot and bothered' minorities, feminists, gays and indignant 23 year old's that are driving to their 'Stop Hate' rally in their beloved VolksWagen designed by Adolf Hitler as the ideal car. Oh yes. It's all very interesting ; )

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    Re: Did unions bankrupt Detroit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan5 View Post
    It is not because of Unions at all.


    If you own a BMW, Mercedes or Volkswagon you are driving a Union vehicle. German carmakers are killing American car makers and German car companies are the most unionized companies in the entire world. They even have corporate unions for their white collar workers..


    So no, it has nothing to do with Unions. At all. It DOES have something to do with something else, on the human level though.


    Do read into what I'm saying.



    On a side note. It is hilarious to watch some anti union American rant about how horrible unions are then brag about their German Union BMW or Mercedes car that is a full blown Union vehicle made my Union members.
    Not to bust your bubble here, but the current Detroit city gov't financial problem has more to do with its own public employee unions (and their generous retirement benefit package deals) than anything to do with the auto industry unions. Loss of employers in the area is largely beyond the control of the Detroit city gov't, unless you think that they simply taxed too much or did not provide adequate city services.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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