• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent

Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent


  • Total voters
    47
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Right, because that means he should die.
It has no relevence to the case....except for how big Trayvon was compared to Zimmerman.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

I noticed that some of the Treyvon Martin supporters keep bringing up the fact he was a kid and I know some people think it does matter that an assailant was a minor.So I thought I would ask the following question- Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,bank robber, attempted rapist/murder relevant? For example if a burglar is killed inside someone's home should the homeowner be in legal trouble if that burglar is a minor? If a bank robber is killed while trying to rob a bank and that bank robber is a minor should that concerned citizen or security guard be in legal trouble?

no the age is meaningless, the threat is what matters
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

It has no relevence to the case....except for how big Trayvon was compared to Zimmerman.

Then why mention the "spleef"?
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

The media was totally dishonest in their representation of Trayvon, purposefully leaving details about him out of the public eye, portraying him as if he was much younger than he actually was by showing years' old pictures of him. :roll:
They did more than that, they flat out lied and changed the factual evidence to suit their narrative. I think everyone of those 24/7 news commentary channels should be made to pay for the trial and all the expenses and damages related to the protests...after all, they're the only ones who profited from it.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

If they have the ability to kill me, why should I not have the right to defend myself from them?
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

They did more than that, they flat out lied and changed the factual evidence to suit their narrative. I think everyone of those 24/7 news commentary channels should be made to pay for the trial and all the expenses and damages related to the protests...after all, they're the only ones who profited from it.

One thing you all overlook is that Martin was a minor. There are restrictions about what CAN be released about a minor without the family's consent. Of course, the family has an interest in painting their son out to be a saint - and likely would've done so even if it was just talking to strangers about their kid before the incident. It's what most parents do, even when they have a kid with some issues.

And the right wing media played their own distortion games as well, so that a certain bunch of people can feel justified in being glad that Martin is dead.

I'm not saying you necessarily, but I guarantee you there are a LOT of people out there who don't look at this as tragic, but are thankful that Zimmerman "got one." Thus, the need to paint him out as the human face of evil for smoking pot and getting suspended.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

But, of course, the backlash is to paint him out to be a wanton baby-killing thug who, if Zimmerman hadn't stalked him down and killt him, he was going to destroy vast swaths of humanity all on his own.

It doesn't matter if he enjoyed smoking pot or got suspended or took a selfie flipping the bird. He wasn't doing anything wrong when Zimmerman decided that he looked like a criminal and decided to stalk him against police advise and against Neighborhood Watch practices. Now he's dead. And apparently a lot of people think it's okay to shoot people who aren't perfect little saints.

Well I don't know what other people think, I think it was two morons who got into a fight which spiraled out of control and ended up a tragedy. Both parties made mistakes and bad decisions which led to the outcome.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Well I don't know what other people think, I think it was two morons who got into a fight which spiraled out of control and ended up a tragedy. Both parties made mistakes and bad decisions which led to the outcome.

Except one person made the bad decision FIRST that led to all of it. And he faces no responsibility for it. Zimmerman reacted to an assumption that a kid in a hoodie was "suspicious." Martin reacted to a guy who was stalking him, who then got out of the car and continued following him and someone he perceived as a threat.

If Zimmerman doesn't make his stupid assumption first, Martin has nothing to perceive as a threat to respond to and is home eating Skittles right now. And Zimmerman is peeking out his front window looking for other suspicious perps. And we don't know who they are.

The jury said, "The only thing he was guilty of was not using good judgement."

In most place, not using good judgment that results in someone's death is called Manslaughter.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

If you're logical and rational, it doesn't matter. If you're hyper-emotional and hyper-sensitive, it matters.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Except one person made the bad decision FIRST that led to all of it. And he faces no responsibility for it. Zimmerman reacted to an assumption that a kid in a hoodie was "suspicious." Martin reacted to a guy who was stalking him, who then got out of the car and continued following him and someone he perceived as a threat.

If Zimmerman doesn't make his stupid assumption first, Martin has nothing to perceive as a threat to respond to and is home eating Skittles right now. And Zimmerman is peeking out his front window looking for other suspicious perps. And we don't know who they are.

The jury said, "The only thing he was guilty of was not using good judgement."

In most place, not using good judgment that results in someone's death is called Manslaughter.

No, it's not manslaughter because the only thing they could prove was that Z followed M. That is not against the law. They could not prove that Z did anything against the law, so yes, according to the law he is only guilty of not using good judgment.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

No, it's not manslaughter because the only thing they could prove was that Z followed M. That is not against the law. They could not prove that Z did anything against the law, so yes, according to the law he is only guilty of not using good judgment.

Not using good judgment that KILLED someone. Not using good judgment was assuming that a kid walking down the street was automatically a criminal. Not using good judgment that KILLED someone is stalking that person in a vehicle and then on foot to the point that the person feels threatened.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Not using good judgment that KILLED someone. Not using good judgment was assuming that a kid walking down the street was automatically a criminal. Not using good judgment that KILLED someone is stalking that person in a vehicle and then on foot to the point that the person feels threatened.

Okay, the same can be said of Trayvon's decisions that night too, to confront the follower, to not call 9-1-1 and call his friend instead, probably other things that I don't remember or don't know about. I certainly wasn't as interested and didn't follow this case as much as others have and it's not an obsession of mine.

However, according to the topic of discussion, if a person who is 17 years old starts beating the hell out of you and is getting the better of you, slamming your head on the concrete and smothering you, it is a natural instinct to use whatever to defend yourself.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Then why mention the "spleef"?

You're right, I should have said "blunt." Trayvon may have smoked a "blunt" just prior to running into Zimmerman. Marijuana can make some people feel "paranoid". So Trayvon may have been acting paranoid...or just stoned....and to Zimmerman that looked suspicious.



Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, it's Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or hispanic?

Zimmerman: He looks black.

Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's here now, he was just staring.

Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area…

Zimmerman: looking at all the houses.

Dispatcher: OK…

Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.


No one deserves to die for smoking pot...please. That isn't the point...the point is, Trayvon's stoned behaviour is what alerted Zimmerman to notice him and not his race or what he was wearing.


****

Do you think the public would have had as much sympathy for Trayvon if the media portrayed him as an adult instead of a child? Ask a pro-lifer, they refer to a ZEF as a child to invoke sympathy all the time.

The public outrage in the aftermath of the trial is whats relevant now and most of those who act the most outraged are still refering to Trayvon as a "little boy" or "a kid" and the media is still portraying him as such when in fact he was a full grown young man just a few months away from being considered a full fledged adult.
 
Last edited:
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

I enjoy when people who don't understand the meaning of recidivism talk about what the right punishments should be. It's like debating with Down Syndrome kids about chromosomes.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

You're right, I should have said "blunt." Trayvon may have smoked a "blunt" just prior to running into Zimmerman. Marijuana can make some people feel "paranoid". So Trayvon may have been acting paranoid...or just stoned....and to Zimmerman that looked suspicious.

Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, it's Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or hispanic?

Zimmerman: He looks black.

Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's here now, he was just staring.

Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area…

Zimmerman: looking at all the houses.

Dispatcher: OK…

Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.


No one deserves to die for smoking pot. That isn't the point...the point is, Trayvon's stoned behaviour is what alerted Zimmerman to notice him and not his race or what he was wearing.


****

Do you think the public would have had as much sympathy for Trayvon if the media portrayed him as an adult instead of a child? Ask a pro-lifer, they refer to a ZEF as child all the time because they know they'll get more sympathy.

The public outrage in the aftermath of the trial is whats relevant now and most of those who act the most outraged are still refering to Trayvon as a "little boy" or "a kid" and the media is still portraying him as such when in fact he was a full grown young man just a few months away from being considered a full fledged adult.

I personally refer to anyone under 30 as a kid at this point. When a teen dies in an accident people say, "He was just a kid." It's actually quite common.

And I don't ****ing care if it was Snoop Dogg (or Lion or whatever he calls himself these days): Zimmerman does what was asked him by the dispatcher and what is policy of Neighborhood Watch - and everyone's alive.

Zimmerman's initial bad judgment led to everything. Without that, we hear nothing about these two. Martin's alive and Zimmerman can remain paranoid in trying to take out "punks."

The make-up or content of Martin's character has dick-all to do with it, other than to let certain people feel glad that he's dead.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

I personally refer to anyone under 30 as a kid at this point. When a teen dies in an accident people say, "He was just a kid." It's actually quite common.

And I don't ****ing care if it was Snoop Dogg (or Lion or whatever he calls himself these days): Zimmerman does what was asked him by the dispatcher and what is policy of Neighborhood Watch - and everyone's alive.

Zimmerman's initial bad judgment led to everything. Without that, we hear nothing about these two. Martin's alive and Zimmerman can remain paranoid in trying to take out "punks."

The make-up or content of Martin's character has dick-all to do with it, other than to let certain people feel glad that he's dead.

Both people's actions led to the events. Did you know that 4 black children (REAL children) were gunned down in Chicago during the 20-day duration of the trial? Where's the outrage for that? What makes THIS crime any worse?

http://homicides.suntimes.com/
 
Last edited:
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Okay, the same can be said of Trayvon's decisions that night too, to confront the follower, to not call 9-1-1 and call his friend instead, probably other things that I don't remember or don't know about. I certainly wasn't as interested and didn't follow this case as much as others have and it's not an obsession of mine.

However, according to the topic of discussion, if a person who is 17 years old starts beating the hell out of you and is getting the better of you, slamming your head on the concrete and smothering you, it is a natural instinct to use whatever to defend yourself.

Martin's decisions matter less, because he didn't place himself in the circumstance. Zimmerman did. I'm not saying Martin didn't have a part. He did. But he didn't instigate the events. Zimmerman did.

I'm really afraid of the precedent this sets.

Imagine a bully in school following a kid down the hall, but the scrawny kid turns out to be stronger than the bully thought. Now, the bully can just claim self-defense and shoot. That he instigated things doesn't matter any more.

Hell, as long as he doesn't say so, a potential rapist can initiate an attack and if the woman fights back and is a little stronger than he thought, he can shoot her and claim self-defense as long as there is no one to verify that he intended to rape her.

As it is now, we're going to have another one of these trials with a guy who started an argument over the "hip-hop being too loud" and shot a kid who was sitting in a car. And he's claiming self-defense.

It's a terrible precedent that allows aggressors to claim victimhood in the act of taking out their prey.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

I noticed that some of the Treyvon Martin supporters keep bringing up the fact he was a kid and I know some people think it does matter that an assailant was a minor.So I thought I would ask the following question- Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,bank robber, attempted rapist/murder relevant? For example if a burglar is killed inside someone's home should the homeowner be in legal trouble if that burglar is a minor? If a bank robber is killed while trying to rob a bank and that bank robber is a minor should that concerned citizen or security guard be in legal trouble?

if he was trying to rob zimmerman

l wonder it
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Well, if you're familiar with my posts on the subject of children, I think they should be considered and treated as adults when they are 18. Some will say that's arbitrary, but it's really a generally acceptable age of adulthood IMO. And even that might be kind of young when considering current scientific knowledge about the differences in the brains of teens and adults.

Hmm - do you remember years ago when we talked about that kid who killed his father's girlfriend and he was sentenced to an adult prison - though, physically, they weren't able to care for him (like - they didn't have his size clothes, etc)? . . . I think, in that debate, we tossed around the growing necessity of needing a high-security teen-prison. (It might not have been you - I can't even remember what year that was. 2009?)

Because a lot of juveniles haven't done anything as extreme as cause bodily harm or death - a 13 year old stealing is different than a 17 year old killing someone.

So - the issue, it seems, is that we still haven't addressed that fact that (apparently) more and more youth are committing the higher-level crimes - and the solution is either A) put them with the juvenile delinquents whom they will be a harm to or B) put them with adults who will be a harm to them.

I actually care - maybe it should be decided individually based on the student and their physical aptitude.

I believe juveniles who've committed minor crimes still have a future - and they shouldn't be burdened and held back by bunking with a murderer.

(Of course - I know that's not what the OP was about)
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Hmm - do you remember years ago when we talked about that kid who killed his father's girlfriend and he was sentenced to an adult prison - though, physically, they weren't able to care for him (like - they didn't have his size clothes, etc)? . . . I think, in that debate, we tossed around the growing necessity of needing a high-security teen-prison. (It might not have been you - I can't even remember what year that was. 2009?)

Because a lot of juveniles haven't done anything as extreme as cause bodily harm or death - a 13 year old stealing is different than a 17 year old killing someone.

So - the issue, it seems, is that we still haven't addressed that fact that (apparently) more and more youth are committing the higher-level crimes - and the solution is either A) put them with the juvenile delinquents whom they will be a harm to or B) put them with adults who will be a harm to them.

I actually care - maybe it should be decided individually based on the student and their physical aptitude.

I believe juveniles who've committed minor crimes still have a future - and they shouldn't be burdened and held back by bunking with a murderer.

(Of course - I know that's not what the OP was about)

CDC - Violent Crime Arrest Rates Among Persons Ages 10-24 - Youth Violence - Violence Prevention - Injury

If you follow the link, you'll see that the rate of violent crimes committed by men age 10 - 24 has lessened by more than half since 1995.

The rate by women 10 - 24 remains basically unchanged, but was pretty low to begin with.

Just wanted to make sure you were aware that "more and more youth are committing higher-level crimes" isn't actually true. They're committing a lot fewer.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

One thing you all overlook is that Martin was a minor. There are restrictions about what CAN be released about a minor without the family's consent. Of course, the family has an interest in painting their son out to be a saint - and likely would've done so even if it was just talking to strangers about their kid before the incident. It's what most parents do, even when they have a kid with some issues.

And the right wing media played their own distortion games as well, so that a certain bunch of people can feel justified in being glad that Martin is dead.

I'm not saying you necessarily, but I guarantee you there are a LOT of people out there who don't look at this as tragic, but are thankful that Zimmerman "got one." Thus, the need to paint him out as the human face of evil for smoking pot and getting suspended.

OJ trial wasn't that long ago....so perhaps some people might be feeling vindicated for that. I don't know if the family of TM would have total control or even consent in the evidence and photographs on TMs cell phone and facebook that were discovered by the prosecutor and/or the defense. Anyway...

Zimmerman's defense team made a deal with the prosecution not use evidence that attacked the character of either Trayvon or Zimmerman. If the evidence doesn't explain or show what happened in the moments leading up to TM getting killed then it's irrelevant to the case. So the defense didn't need it and the prosecutor didn't want the public seeing it and so a deal was reached. But that doesn't mean we can't still talk about it.
 
Last edited:
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

CDC - Violent Crime Arrest Rates Among Persons Ages 10-24 - Youth Violence - Violence Prevention - Injury

If you follow the link, you'll see that the rate of violent crimes committed by men age 10 - 24 has lessened by more than half since 1995.

The rate by women 10 - 24 remains basically unchanged, but was pretty low to begin with.

Just wanted to make sure you were aware that "more and more youth are committing higher-level crimes" isn't actually true. They're committing a lot fewer.

Thanks - I just must be paying more attention to it. Odds are that's psychological for me - my children are getting older so I'm focusing more on issues that might affect their age bracket.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

I noticed that some of the Treyvon Martin supporters keep bringing up the fact he was a kid and I know some people think it does matter that an assailant was a minor.So I thought I would ask the following question- Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,bank robber, attempted rapist/murder relevant? For example if a burglar is killed inside someone's home should the homeowner be in legal trouble if that burglar is a minor? If a bank robber is killed while trying to rob a bank and that bank robber is a minor should that concerned citizen or security guard be in legal trouble?
.


You appear to imply Trayvons' guilt by the way you phrase the question. I don't see the similarities here, primarily because we KNOW that someone is a threat if they are caught in the act of robbing our home or a bank.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Martin's decisions matter less, because he didn't place himself in the circumstance. Zimmerman did. I'm not saying Martin didn't have a part. He did. But he didn't instigate the events. Zimmerman did.

I'm really afraid of the precedent this sets.

Imagine a bully in school following a kid down the hall, but the scrawny kid turns out to be stronger than the bully thought. Now, the bully can just claim self-defense and shoot. That he instigated things doesn't matter any more.

Hell, as long as he doesn't say so, a potential rapist can initiate an attack and if the woman fights back and is a little stronger than he thought, he can shoot her and claim self-defense as long as there is no one to verify that he intended to rape her.

As it is now, we're going to have another one of these trials with a guy who started an argument over the "hip-hop being too loud" and shot a kid who was sitting in a car. And he's claiming self-defense.

It's a terrible precedent that allows aggressors to claim victimhood in the act of taking out their prey.

I don't think the law allows someone to be in the middle of commiting a crime and then claim self defense if they kill someone....no uh uh....I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Not even the SYG law is that stupid.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

It was relevant in this case because the media manipulated the public into believing Trayvon was just a "little boy" skipping home with his little bag of candy as opposed to a full grown young man sauntering home after smoking a big spleef.

Where do you get the information that he was "sauntering" and the he had smoked a big spleef? Also, what does it say about some who smokes. Is anyone who smokes pot then also a thief?
 
Back
Top Bottom