View Poll Results: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent

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Thread: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent

  1. #81
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Well, as a person who had a child at 16, I can tell you that I was much too young and immature for that kind of responsibility and in no way an adult at that age. You wouldn't believe some the absolutely stupid thoughts I had at that age. I completely disagree. MOST 16 year olds are not responsible adults.

    It's nobody's "fault" either. It's just the way of the world and progress, technological, medical, etc.
    But look how you turned out, not half-bad. Do you love your child any less for having it at 16? Do you REALLY think people who have one in their 20's or 30's are better at raising one? Maybe more financially secure, but not necessarily better. They had to learn and endure the lessons too.

    As for being "responsible" adults, that has more to do with how they are being raised. If a child is raised to accept responsibilty he can act responsibly. We don't do that anymore. We tell them, "you are not responsible until you are 18!" Sooo, they think they have a get-out-of-jail-free card until then. Of course they act the fool, it's just "high-jinks".... until it's not and someone dies or goes to jail.

    That wasn't the case when I was growing up. This "Dr. Spock" coddling of children started around that time but youth back then WAS more responsible in the main. The more you train a teen to be a "child" the more likely you are to develop adults with a juvenile mentality. The sooner you start giving a teen responsibility and the respect that goes with it, the sooner they learn to be responsible adults.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  2. #82
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I think they're ready to fly at 16.... just not solo.


    In earlier cultures where adulthood came at 14 or 15, it was nonetheless typical that the teenager was still under the authority of a mature adult... whether it be their father (Roman Paterfamilias... in some periods you were under your father's rule until he died, even if you were 40), the master craftsman they were apprenticed to, or their Centurion or Sergeant or what have you. They weren't just cut loose to make all their own decisions without the guidance of more mature heads.
    I agree. You start teaching teens responsiblity, let them experience it, and they are better for it.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  3. #83
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    But look how you turned out, not half-bad. Do you love your child any less for having it at 16? Do you REALLY think people who have one in their 20's or 30's are better at raising one? Maybe more financially secure, but not necessarily better. They had to learn and endure the lessons too.
    How would you know? You don't know anything about me. Yes, I totally think people who are in the 20s and 30s are WAY better at raising children. I was still a child myself and very self-centered still. I had just about zero maternal instinct at that age. Funny thing when I got into my 20s, I suddenly wanted to have a baby. NOT at 16. I missed out on a big part of my childhood, lost a LOT of my friends and felt isolated much of the time.

    As for being "responsible" adults, that has more to do with how they are being raised. If a child is raised to accept responsibilty he can act responsibly. We don't do that anymore. We tell them, "you are not responsible until you are 18!" Sooo, they think they have a get-out-of-jail-free card until then. Of course they act the fool, it's just "high-jinks".... until it's not and someone dies or goes to jail.
    Absolutely untrue. I know a brother and sister, raised the same way, same parents of course. Two completely different individuals. The sister had a good head on her shoulders, the brother not so much. And I completely disagree with "you are not responsible until you are 18" theory, because most 16 year olds DO think they are adults, but to other adults not so much.

    That wasn't the case when I was growing up. This "Dr. Spock" coddling of children started around that time but youth back then WAS more responsible in the main. The more you train a teen to be a "child" the more likely you are to develop adults with a juvenile mentality. The sooner you start giving a teen responsibility and the respect that goes with it, the sooner they learn to be responsible adults.
    Disagree due to my own personal experience, that of friends, observing my own child, studies I've read, discussions I've participated in, MRI scans of teenager brains, etc.

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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    I wouldn't trust anyone who wants to lower the age of consent. I MUST question their motives when 18 is only two more years. Why so young? Why not let them be children until they are 18, when all of the evidence points to the fact that most teens are actually still children?

  5. #85
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    But look how you turned out, not half-bad. Do you love your child any less for having it at 16? Do you REALLY think people who have one in their 20's or 30's are better at raising one? Maybe more financially secure, but not necessarily better. They had to learn and endure the lessons too.

    As for being "responsible" adults, that has more to do with how they are being raised. If a child is raised to accept responsibilty he can act responsibly. We don't do that anymore. We tell them, "you are not responsible until you are 18!" Sooo, they think they have a get-out-of-jail-free card until then. Of course they act the fool, it's just "high-jinks".... until it's not and someone dies or goes to jail.

    That wasn't the case when I was growing up. This "Dr. Spock" coddling of children started around that time but youth back then WAS more responsible in the main. The more you train a teen to be a "child" the more likely you are to develop adults with a juvenile mentality. The sooner you start giving a teen responsibility and the respect that goes with it, the sooner they learn to be responsible adults.

    This was why I raised my son the way I did.

    When he was 9yo, I had a Bobcat (skidloader) on loan for some weeks, clearing some land. He was fascinated by it and wanted to drive it.... so, very carefully and under much supervision, I spent a whole morning teaching him how to operate the thing. Then when he had the hang of it, he was ready to leave and go play... I said "Oh no, time to pay it back... now that you know how to run that thing, you're doing some work with it."

    He spent a large chunk of that afternoon, and probably 20 more hours over the next few weeks, running that bobcat and doing WORK with it, work I wanted done. In the process he learned that a skid-loader isn't a toy, it has a purpose. He had a couple of close calls but I was always watching him and made sure he didn't do anything really dangerous.

    The other kids at school didn't believe him when he told them he drove a Bobcat. The next time they saw me that was the only thing they ALL instantly wanted to ask, was it true? When I said "yes", they looked awestruck.

    I took much the same approach to other things, like guns, driving cars, chainsaws and felling trees... I taught him everything I could, and then when he learned it I required him to put it to use for the common good of his family.

    Now he's 17, and while he still has a lot to learn he is far more responsible and serious-minded than 99% of his peers.


    They CAN be taught!

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  6. #86
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    How would you know? You don't know anything about me. Yes, I totally think people who are in the 20s and 30s are WAY better at raising children. I was still a child myself and very self-centered still. I had just about zero maternal instinct at that age. Funny thing when I got into my 20s, I suddenly wanted to have a baby. NOT at 16. I missed out on a big part of my childhood, lost a LOT of my friends and felt isolated much of the time.
    Forgive me, I was simply basing the first comment on how together your response were here in the forum. If you are not doing okay, my apologies. I was also making the point that "in the bad old days" a girl would not necessarily be left alone to fend for her child's welfare. The boy was often held accountable too. Not always of course or we wouldn't have so many soap opera tales either.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Absolutely untrue. I know a brother and sister, raised the same way, same parents of course. Two completely different individuals. The sister had a good head on her shoulders, the brother not so much. And I completely disagree with "you are not responsible until you are 18" theory, because most 16 year olds DO think they are adults, but to other adults not so much.
    The fact that they were two completely different individuals is a fact of life, not of environment. Or of age.

    I don't agree (about the 18 yo thing). Oh yes, 16 yo's think they are adults (and they are) we just refuse to TREAT them like adults. That's why when they do act the fool they either get away with it or they do something so stupid we punish them like adults anyway. If we started treating them like adults at that age, I believe they would be less likely to act like juveniles. That's what history has shown anyway...Alexander was around 16 when he conquered Greece.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Disagree due to my own personal experience, that of friends, observing my own child, studies I've read, discussions I've participated in, MRI scans of teenager brains, etc.
    And I counter with MY personal experiences, that of freinds, etc., etc. etc. I also raise you with the whole of prior human history before the last 100 years.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 07-19-13 at 01:16 AM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  7. #87
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I wouldn't trust anyone who wants to lower the age of consent. I MUST question their motives when 18 is only two more years. Why so young? Why not let them be children until they are 18, when all of the evidence points to the fact that most teens are actually still children?
    A teens body grows a lot faster than their brain. So I'm inclined to agree.

    Of course theres always the exceptions who grow up taking care of their parents and siblings and are more mature than most adults.

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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    A teens body grows a lot faster than their brain. So I'm inclined to agree.

    Of course theres always the exceptions who grow up taking care of their parents and siblings and are more mature than most adults.
    Of course, there are always going to be those who mature faster, but it's a good idea when dealing with such issues to overestimate rather than underestimate IMO.

  9. #89
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    This was why I raised my son the way I did.

    When he was 9yo, I had a Bobcat (skidloader) on loan for some weeks, clearing some land. He was fascinated by it and wanted to drive it.... so, very carefully and under much supervision, I spent a whole morning teaching him how to operate the thing. Then when he had the hang of it, he was ready to leave and go play... I said "Oh no, time to pay it back... now that you know how to run that thing, you're doing some work with it."

    He spent a large chunk of that afternoon, and probably 20 more hours over the next few weeks, running that bobcat and doing WORK with it, work I wanted done. In the process he learned that a skid-loader isn't a toy, it has a purpose. He had a couple of close calls but I was always watching him and made sure he didn't do anything really dangerous.

    The other kids at school didn't believe him when he told them he drove a Bobcat. The next time they saw me that was the only thing they ALL instantly wanted to ask, was it true? When I said "yes", they looked awestruck.

    I took much the same approach to other things, like guns, driving cars, chainsaws and felling trees... I taught him everything I could, and then when he learned it I required him to put it to use for the common good of his family.

    Now he's 17, and while he still has a lot to learn he is far more responsible and serious-minded than 99% of his peers.


    They CAN be taught!
    Egg-Zackly!! And by the way AWESOME dude!
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  10. #90
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    [QUOTE=Captain Adverse;1062077351]
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    How would you know? You don't know anything about me. Yes, I totally think people who are in the 20s and 30s are WAY better at raising children. I was still a child myself and very self-centered still. I had just about zero maternal instinct at that age. Funny thing when I got into my 20s, I suddenly wanted to have a baby. NOT at 16. I missed out on a big part of my childhood, lost a LOT of my friends and felt isolated much of the time.

    Forgive me, I was simply basing the first comment on how together your response were here in the forum. If you are not doing okay, my apologies. I was also making the point that "in the bad old days" a girl would not necessarily be left alone to fend for her child's welfare. The boy was often held accountable too. Not always of course or we wouldn't have so many soap opera tales either.



    The fact that they were two completely different individuals is a fact of life, not of environment. Or of age.

    I don't agree (about the 18 yo thing). Oh yes, 16 yo's think they are adults (and they are) we just refuse to TREAT them like adults. That's why when they do act the fool they either get away with it or they do something so stupid we punish them like adults anyway. If we started treating them like adults at that age, I believe they would be less likely to act like juveniles. That's what history has shown anyway...Alexander was around 16 when he conquered Greece.



    And I counter with MY personal experiences, that of freinds, etc., etc. etc. I also raise you with the whole of prior human history before the last 100 years.
    Yes, Alexander the Great Again, that means absolutely nothing. A kid that age is going to be good at fighting and war. That's why they draft them so young, because they also have no fear yet. They just don't understand and think bad things happen to "other people."

    Regardless, I disagree completely with all of your ideas and have to wonder why you would want 16 year olds to be considered adults.

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