View Poll Results: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent

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Thread: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent

  1. #71
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    No, I said he might have acted like he was "stoned" which is why Zimmerman noticed him.

    I never said it did....I said it could make some people feel "paranoid". But then who wouldn't feel paranoid if someone was following them on a dark rainy night? So if Trayvon was stoned he could have been super paranoid that Zimmerman was following him and that would have an effect on how he reacted.

    Were the tests done by the same coroner who forgot to test for internal bruising on Trayvons knuckles? Depending on the quality of pot, it doesn't take very much to get stoned does it? Cuz, I remember when it used to take a whole bag. Nowadays you just need a pinch. So the amount of pot in his system post mortum is not neccessarily relevant to how stoned he was when he was alive. Just the fact it's there in his system is relevant enough to speculate that TM was stoned.

    No, but I see the many assumptions you made from my post.
    Well, I better understand your points now. So thank you.
    I still glean from your post that you are saying it he was a little high and paranoid because of it he saw a threat in Z that was not actually a threat. Is that what you are saying?

    I'm not sure what you mean about my assumptions. If you are referencing how I understood your post I don't think you can call my interpretations assumptions.

  2. #72
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Well, if you're familiar with my posts on the subject of children, I think they should be considered and treated as adults when they are 18. Some will say that's arbitrary, but it's really a generally acceptable age of adulthood IMO. And even that might be kind of young when considering current scientific knowledge about the differences in the brains of teens and adults.
    Although no expert, I would think our anthropological history would dispute your points. In the first place, humans like other primates are considered "adult" when they can successfully breed. That's the typical marker for an "adult" stage in organisms.

    In the second place Humans were not built to live as long as we have been able to extend our lives. We've eliminated predators, reduced weather effects, and lessened effects of disease and parasitism. We've also expanded our food resources. Without all of this "coddling" our true life expectancy is around 40 years and by then we'd be OLD and highly debilitated. Teenagers were parenting and establishing rank in tribal groupings for 100's of thousands of years. Only in the last few humdred have we been able to support a large elderly population.

    In the third place, the main difference between teen brains and adult brains is that teens are slightly more impulsive. Which is a survival mechanism pushing them to experiment and attempt (thereby learn) things, and this might also help the "tribe." They probably lose this characteristic as they get older in order to used learned skills in a more conservative role.

    I agree that 13 and under are still children. But we need to take a closer look at why we tend to think of our teenagers as "still kids" when they certainly refuse to accept that understanding. I'd still keep them in a semi-protected class, but certainly not treat them as immature children.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 07-18-13 at 11:08 PM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  3. #73
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    In a society which favors a lengthy adolescence, a 13-year old is still a child.

    If that child is shot while committing a burglary, he or she will be a dead child.

  4. #74
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Yes and no... I mean sure nobody wants to shoot a little kid, if they have any heart at all... BUT. There have been cases of some really vicious young gangers, under 13 even, who have committed various crimes including murder, often at the behest of older gang members.

    If a 10yo points a gun at you and acts like they really will use it.... you do what you feel you have to do.
    I completely agree with that. A 10 year old with a gun can be as dangerous as an adult with one.

    At the same time, I do think the age can matter. If a couple strong adult men break into your house, even unarmed I can see deadly force being legitimate. But if you are a healthy adult and a couple 8 year old unarmed kids break into your house like in that recent New York vandalism case, I don't think shooting them is appropriate.
    There should be Instant Runoff Voting

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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Although no expert, I would think our anthropological history would dispute your points. In the first place, humans like other primates are considered "adult" when they can successfully breed. That's the typical marker for an "adult" stage in organisms.

    In the second place Humans were not built to live as long as we have been able to extend our lives. We've eliminated predators, reduced weather effects, and lessened effects of disease and parasitism. We've also expanded our food resources. Without all of this "coddling" our true life expectancy is around 40 years and by then we'd be OLD and highly debilitated. Teenagers were parenting and establishing rank in tribal groupings for 100's of thousands of years. Only in the last few humdred have we been able to support a large elderly population.

    In the third place, the main difference between teen brains and adult brains is that teens are slightly more impulsive. Which is a survival mechanism pushing them to experiment and attempt (thereby learn) things, and this might also help the "tribe." They probably lose this characteristic as they get older in order to used learned skills in a more conservative role.

    I agree that 13 and under are still children. But we need to take a closer look at why we tend to think of our teenagers as "still kids" when they certainly refuse to accept that understanding. I'd still keep them in a semi-protected class, but certainly not treat them as immature children.
    Children are a product of the culture in which they are raised. Therefore, comparing today's standards with standards of many, many years ago cannot stand up to scrutiny. We are not going back to the old days. Children and teens are not going to assume the responsibilities that they were forced to back in the old days of history.

    Also, we now know more about the brain than we ever have and have made some fascinating discoveries, which will probably lead us to increasing things like age of consent, etc. Yes, children are impulsive and also most often than not incapable of critical-thinking skills. Whether or not these things are leftover survival mechanisms is another debate entirely, but the facts remain.

  6. #76
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Children are a product of the culture in which they are raised. Therefore, comparing today's standards with standards of many, many years ago cannot stand up to scrutiny. We are not going back to the old days. Children and teens are not going to assume the responsibilities that they were forced to back in the old days of history.
    Part of our problem, as I see it, is that we have so much leisure time, and are living so much longer, we tend to coddle our children. Understandable; we want whats best for them and we want them to enjoy their youth as long as possible.

    However, children remain children, and teens remain teens. The culture or locale wherein they are raised does not change their basic natures. Were the world to fall apart tomorrow, they would quickly revert back to exactly the types of behaviors of teens and children you currently reject as "from the past." That's human nature.

    Besides which, children currently "assume the responsibilities that they were forced to back in the old days of history." You just don't see it. Lot's of teens are working, getting married, taking care of their own business even now, here in the U.S.A. It's only kids of the so-called "middle" and "upper" classes who most often endure the coddling you are talking about. Even then, maybe more so, they act out and rebel at their limitations.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Also, we now know more about the brain than we ever have and have made some fascinating discoveries, which will probably lead us to increasing things like age of consent, etc. Yes, children are impulsive and also most often than not incapable of critical-thinking skills. Whether or not these things are leftover survival mechanisms is another debate entirely, but the facts remain.
    Your hope. I don't agree. I ran away when I was 16, lived on the streets, and only came back to live with my grandmother to finish high school. I was not alone and I took care of my business. Telling a teen "you are a child and too young to make decisions" will usually result in acting out, and deceptive behaviors. They will continue to have sex, do drugs, commit crimes of vandalism etc., despite all efforts at coddling. Just because you want to consider them children, doesn't make it so. Sorry, we often agree, but I prefer looking at this realistically.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Part of our problem, as I see it, is that we have so much leisure time, and are living so much longer, we tend to coddle our children. Understandable; we want whats best for them and we want them to enjoy their youth as long as possible.

    However, children remain children, and teens remain teens. The culture or locale wherein they are raised does not change their basic natures. Were the world to fall apart tomorrow, they would quickly revert back to exactly the types of behaviors of teens and children you currently reject as "from the past." That's human nature.

    Besides which, children currently "assume the responsibilities that they were forced to back in the old days of history." You just don't see it. Lot's of teens are working, getting married, taking care of their own business even now, here in the U.S.A. It's only kids of the so-called "middle" and "upper" classes who most often endure the coddling you are talking about. Even then, maybe more so, they act out and rebel at their limitations.



    Your hope. I don't agree. I ran away when I was 16, lived on the streets, and only came back to live with my grandmother to finish high school. I was not alone and I took care of my business. Telling a teen "you are a child and too young to make decisions" will usually result in acting out, and deceptive behaviors. They will continue to have sex, do drugs, commit crimes of vandalism etc., despite all efforts at coddling. Just because you want to consider them children, doesn't make it so. Sorry, we often agree, but I prefer looking at this realistically.
    I disagree with your entire premise. Teenagers should not be considered adults until they have completed an education and can be self sufficient in today's society. That isn't until age 18 at least.

  8. #78
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I disagree with your entire premise. Teenagers should not be considered adults until they have completed an education and can be self sufficient in today's society. That isn't until age 18 at least.
    That's fine. We can agree to disagree. You have a right to your opinion. I prefer to let people decide for themselves and believe that choice starts around age 16. That's just my opinion.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    That's fine. We can agree to disagree. You have a right to your opinion. I prefer to let people decide for themselves and believe that choice starts around age 16. That's just my opinion.
    Well, as a person who had a child at 16, I can tell you that I was much too young and immature for that kind of responsibility and in no way an adult at that age. You wouldn't believe some the absolutely stupid thoughts I had at that age. I completely disagree. MOST 16 year olds are not responsible adults.

    It's nobody's "fault" either. It's just the way of the world and progress, technological, medical, etc.

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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    That's fine. We can agree to disagree. You have a right to your opinion. I prefer to let people decide for themselves and believe that choice starts around age 16. That's just my opinion.
    I think they're ready to fly at 16.... just not solo.


    In earlier cultures where adulthood came at 14 or 15, it was nonetheless typical that the teenager was still under the authority of a mature adult... whether it be their father (Roman Paterfamilias... in some periods you were under your father's rule until he died, even if you were 40), the master craftsman they were apprenticed to, or their Centurion or Sergeant or what have you. They weren't just cut loose to make all their own decisions without the guidance of more mature heads.

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