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Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent

Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent

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Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Moot said:
I don't think the law allows someone to be in the middle of commiting a crime and then claim self defense if they kill someone....no uh uh....I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Not even the SYG law is that stupid.
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What crime was Trayvon committing?
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

opendebate said:
What crime was Trayvon committing?
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she means zimmerman commited a crime l thi,nk
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

opendebate said:
Where do you get the information that he was "sauntering" and the he had smoked a big spleef? Also, what does it say about some who smokes. Is anyone who smokes pot then also a thief?
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If you don't like the word "sauntering" then why don't you tell me how a stoned person walks and acts?

I first got my information from another another poster....Oceanview, I think it was and I didn't believe him/her so I googled it and then found out she/he was right. It happens all the time around here.
 
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Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

NO.

It's relevant whether or not the freeze when I tell them to and show their hands when told to. Until that is settled, nothing else matters.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

TheDemSocialist said:
Yes.. Of course it does. If its like a kid, hell of course its relevant.
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On a battlefield, you really think it matters if it is a 10yr old or a 50yr old pointing an AK at you? The only things that matter then are who pulls the trigger first and how good their aim is.

If it does matter to you, then, would you prefer burial or cremation?

Same for someone breaking into a house, waving a gun at people, etc. If they are acting violently, then it becomes you or them. I'm not sorry I prefer me to them.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

opendebate said:
What crime was Trayvon committing?
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I give up, what crime was Trayvon commiting?

I was responding to another poster who was referring to the crime of rape......see....

"...Hell, as long as he doesn't say so, a potential rapist can initiate an attack and if the woman fights back and is a little stronger than he thought, he can shoot her and claim self-defense as long as there is no one to verify that he intended to rape her."

Next time please read my posts in context to what I'm responding to. Thanx.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

DVSentinel said:
On a battlefield, you really think it matters if it is a 10yr old or a 50yr old pointing an AK at you? The only things that matter then are who pulls the trigger first and how good their aim is.

If it does matter to you, then, would you prefer burial or cremation?

Same for someone breaking into a house, waving a gun at people, etc. If they are acting violently, then it becomes you or them. I'm not sorry I prefer me to them.
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why does a ten year old child want to attack you in your house,,

not so reasonable
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Moot said:
If you don't like the word "sauntering" then why don't you tell me how a stoned person walks and acts?

I first got my information from another another poster....Oceanview, I think it was and I didn't believe him so I googled it and then found out he was right. It happens all the time around here.
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So it sounds like you are saying that he was "sauntering" and his gate implies what exactly? That he is a criminal? Have you ever smoked pot? Believe me....it does not make you hostile or a threat. Besides, the information I saw regarding the amount of marijuana in his system was that it was so minimal that it was considered irrelevant.

Do you see the many assumptions made in your post?
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Moot said:
I give up, what crime was Trayvon commiting?

I was responding to another poster who was referring to the crime of rape......see....

"...Hell, as long as he doesn't say so, a potential rapist can initiate an attack and if the woman fights back and is a little stronger than he thought, he can shoot her and claim self-defense as long as there is no one to verify that he intended to rape her."

Next time please read my posts in context to what I'm responding to. Thanx.
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My bad
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

It's relevant in the sense that age can be indicative of intentions or physical capability. The mere fact that the perpetrator was young, or conversely elderly, shouldn't override the facts of the case though. We've seen that very young or even senior individuals are capable of unimaginable brutality given the right circumstances.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

DVSentinel said:
On a battlefield, you really think it matters if it is a 10yr old or a 50yr old pointing an AK at you? The only things that matter then are who pulls the trigger first and how good their aim is.
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Yes. Of course i do. Because like whats already been said before, children and minors are easy to manipulate.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

In some cases, yeah I think it should. For example, if Trayvon had been 10 instead of 17, it would have been a hell of a lot harder to make the argument that he was threatening Zimmerman's life.

In the Zimmerman case in particular I don't think it matters. Martin obviously had the physical size and strength of an adult, making him as much of a threat as anyone who was legally an adult.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

jamesrage said:
Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,bank robber, attempted rapist/murder relevant?
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As you might imagine, living in the South everything is very "race sensitive". If a crime is committed the local authorities will give you a complete description of the suspect...unless he or she is black. The only way we can tell if the suspect is black is if the authorities do not mention race, at all.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

opendebate said:
So it sounds like you are saying that he was "sauntering" and his gate implies what exactly? That he is a criminal?
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No, I said he might have acted like he was "stoned" which is why Zimmerman noticed him.

Have you ever smoked pot? Believe me....it does not make you hostile or a threat.
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I never said it did....I said it could make some people feel "paranoid". But then who wouldn't feel paranoid if someone was following them on a dark rainy night? So if Trayvon was stoned he could have been super paranoid that Zimmerman was following him and that would have an effect on how he reacted.

Besides, the information I saw regarding the amount of marijuana in his system was that it was so minimal that it was considered irrelevant.
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Were the tests done by the same coroner who forgot to test for internal bruising on Trayvons knuckles? Depending on the quality of pot, it doesn't take very much to get stoned does it? Cuz, I remember when it used to take a whole bag. Nowadays you just need a pinch. So the amount of pot in his system post mortum is not neccessarily relevant to how stoned he was when he was alive. Just the fact it's there in his system is relevant enough to speculate that TM was stoned.

Do you see the many assumptions made in your post?
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No, but I see the many assumptions you made from my post.
 
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Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

FilmFestGuy said:
I personally refer to anyone under 30 as a kid at this point. When a teen dies in an accident people say, "He was just a kid." It's actually quite common.
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I know what you mean...even when people die in their 50s people say that was too young.

And I don't ****ing care if it was Snoop Dogg (or Lion or whatever he calls himself these days): Zimmerman does what was asked him by the dispatcher and what is policy of Neighborhood Watch - and everyone's alive.

Zimmerman's initial bad judgment led to everything. Without that, we hear nothing about these two. Martin's alive and Zimmerman can remain paranoid in trying to take out "punks."
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Thats right, it was Zimmerman's bad judgement to get out of the car and follow him on foot. But it could also be argued that it was Trayvons behaviour that made him look suspicous enough to be noticed by Zimmerman....so suspicious in fact that he broke 'protocol' to follow him.

The make-up or content of Martin's character has dick-all to do with it, other than to let certain people feel glad that he's dead.
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Thats why evidence regarding his character wasn't introduced into the trial. I think I"ve said that several times now already.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Medusa said:
why does a ten year old child want to attack you in your house,,

not so reasonable
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I didn't say one did. I said IF one did, it would make no difference to me. BTW, 10 is not that uncommon in gangs in some areas.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Aunt Spiker said:
Hmm - do you remember years ago when we talked about that kid who killed his father's girlfriend and he was sentenced to an adult prison - though, physically, they weren't able to care for him (like - they didn't have his size clothes, etc)? . . . I think, in that debate, we tossed around the growing necessity of needing a high-security teen-prison. (It might not have been you - I can't even remember what year that was. 2009?)
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Nope, wasn't me Auntie, I've only been here a little over a year now.

Because a lot of juveniles haven't done anything as extreme as cause bodily harm or death - a 13 year old stealing is different than a 17 year old killing someone.

So - the issue, it seems, is that we still haven't addressed that fact that (apparently) more and more youth are committing the higher-level crimes - and the solution is either A) put them with the juvenile delinquents whom they will be a harm to or B) put them with adults who will be a harm to them.
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I agree that this is an issue. Separating juveniles by age group and type of crime is a good idea. I don't know if some places already do this or not. Like I disagree with putting a habitual thief in a cell with a lifelong gang member.

I actually care - maybe it should be decided individually based on the student and their physical aptitude.

I believe juveniles who've committed minor crimes still have a future - and they shouldn't be burdened and held back by bunking with a murderer.

(Of course - I know that's not what the OP was about)
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It sounds like good common sense to me. :)
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

FilmFestGuy said:
Martin's decisions matter less, because he didn't place himself in the circumstance. Zimmerman did. I'm not saying Martin didn't have a part. He did. But he didn't instigate the events. Zimmerman did.

I'm really afraid of the precedent this sets.

Imagine a bully in school following a kid down the hall, but the scrawny kid turns out to be stronger than the bully thought. Now, the bully can just claim self-defense and shoot. That he instigated things doesn't matter any more.

Hell, as long as he doesn't say so, a potential rapist can initiate an attack and if the woman fights back and is a little stronger than he thought, he can shoot her and claim self-defense as long as there is no one to verify that he intended to rape her.

As it is now, we're going to have another one of these trials with a guy who started an argument over the "hip-hop being too loud" and shot a kid who was sitting in a car. And he's claiming self-defense.

It's a terrible precedent that allows aggressors to claim victimhood in the act of taking out their prey.
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I understand your concern, though I think it is not warranted. I think that there were also things Trayvon could have easily done to avoid the conflict as well. His decision to strike out was also a bad decision and unwarranted, IMO, given the situation of someone following. I would have tried to get away and call the police, or maybe even spoken and asked if there was something I could help him with or what does he want and tried to explain myself.

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying into your hyperbolic examples. This case was decided in the way it was because of a lack of evidence to convict Mr. Zimmerman of any wrong doing. You cannot convict someone because of what you THINK went down without proper evidence of such. That would make our courts unjust.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

TheDemSocialist said:
Yes.. Of course it does. If its like a kid, hell of course its relevant.
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Its no wonder the "foot soldiers" of gangs are 14 and 15 year olds.............
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

FilmFestGuy said:
Right, because that means he should die.
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I don't recall anyone saying that he should die for smoking "a big spleef" do you?
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Moot said:
No, I said he might have acted like he was "stoned" which is why Zimmerman noticed him.

I never said it did....I said it could make some people feel "paranoid". But then who wouldn't feel paranoid if someone was following them on a dark rainy night? So if Trayvon was stoned he could have been super paranoid that Zimmerman was following him and that would have an effect on how he reacted.

Were the tests done by the same coroner who forgot to test for internal bruising on Trayvons knuckles? Depending on the quality of pot, it doesn't take very much to get stoned does it? Cuz, I remember when it used to take a whole bag. Nowadays you just need a pinch. So the amount of pot in his system post mortum is not neccessarily relevant to how stoned he was when he was alive. Just the fact it's there in his system is relevant enough to speculate that TM was stoned.

No, but I see the many assumptions you made from my post.
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Well, I better understand your points now. So thank you.
I still glean from your post that you are saying it he was a little high and paranoid because of it he saw a threat in Z that was not actually a threat. Is that what you are saying?

I'm not sure what you mean about my assumptions. If you are referencing how I understood your post I don't think you can call my interpretations assumptions.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

ChrisL said:
Well, if you're familiar with my posts on the subject of children, I think they should be considered and treated as adults when they are 18. Some will say that's arbitrary, but it's really a generally acceptable age of adulthood IMO. And even that might be kind of young when considering current scientific knowledge about the differences in the brains of teens and adults.
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Although no expert, I would think our anthropological history would dispute your points. In the first place, humans like other primates are considered "adult" when they can successfully breed. That's the typical marker for an "adult" stage in organisms.

In the second place Humans were not built to live as long as we have been able to extend our lives. We've eliminated predators, reduced weather effects, and lessened effects of disease and parasitism. We've also expanded our food resources. Without all of this "coddling" our true life expectancy is around 40 years and by then we'd be OLD and highly debilitated. Teenagers were parenting and establishing rank in tribal groupings for 100's of thousands of years. Only in the last few humdred have we been able to support a large elderly population.

In the third place, the main difference between teen brains and adult brains is that teens are slightly more impulsive. Which is a survival mechanism pushing them to experiment and attempt (thereby learn) things, and this might also help the "tribe." They probably lose this characteristic as they get older in order to used learned skills in a more conservative role.

I agree that 13 and under are still children. But we need to take a closer look at why we tend to think of our teenagers as "still kids" when they certainly refuse to accept that understanding. I'd still keep them in a semi-protected class, but certainly not treat them as immature children.
 
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Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

In a society which favors a lengthy adolescence, a 13-year old is still a child.

If that child is shot while committing a burglary, he or she will be a dead child.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Goshin said:
Yes and no... I mean sure nobody wants to shoot a little kid, if they have any heart at all... BUT. There have been cases of some really vicious young gangers, under 13 even, who have committed various crimes including murder, often at the behest of older gang members.

If a 10yo points a gun at you and acts like they really will use it.... you do what you feel you have to do.
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I completely agree with that. A 10 year old with a gun can be as dangerous as an adult with one.

At the same time, I do think the age can matter. If a couple strong adult men break into your house, even unarmed I can see deadly force being legitimate. But if you are a healthy adult and a couple 8 year old unarmed kids break into your house like in that recent New York vandalism case, I don't think shooting them is appropriate.
 
Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

Captain Adverse said:
Although no expert, I would think our anthropological history would dispute your points. In the first place, humans like other primates are considered "adult" when they can successfully breed. That's the typical marker for an "adult" stage in organisms.

In the second place Humans were not built to live as long as we have been able to extend our lives. We've eliminated predators, reduced weather effects, and lessened effects of disease and parasitism. We've also expanded our food resources. Without all of this "coddling" our true life expectancy is around 40 years and by then we'd be OLD and highly debilitated. Teenagers were parenting and establishing rank in tribal groupings for 100's of thousands of years. Only in the last few humdred have we been able to support a large elderly population.

In the third place, the main difference between teen brains and adult brains is that teens are slightly more impulsive. Which is a survival mechanism pushing them to experiment and attempt (thereby learn) things, and this might also help the "tribe." They probably lose this characteristic as they get older in order to used learned skills in a more conservative role.

I agree that 13 and under are still children. But we need to take a closer look at why we tend to think of our teenagers as "still kids" when they certainly refuse to accept that understanding. I'd still keep them in a semi-protected class, but certainly not treat them as immature children.
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Children are a product of the culture in which they are raised. Therefore, comparing today's standards with standards of many, many years ago cannot stand up to scrutiny. We are not going back to the old days. Children and teens are not going to assume the responsibilities that they were forced to back in the old days of history.

Also, we now know more about the brain than we ever have and have made some fascinating discoveries, which will probably lead us to increasing things like age of consent, etc. Yes, children are impulsive and also most often than not incapable of critical-thinking skills. Whether or not these things are leftover survival mechanisms is another debate entirely, but the facts remain.
 
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