View Poll Results: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent

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Thread: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent

  1. #141
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I'm not addressing anyone in particular. There have been several posters who have advocated for 16 years old or even younger to be held legally responsible as adults, so I guess I'm addressing anyone who believes that.

    I agree with what you stated above, except I have to stress that just because that's the way it should be doesn't mean that's the way it ever will be.

    Okay. But it isn't simply "the way it should be"... it is the way it CAN be. That is to say, that 16-22yo's do not HAVE to be as immature and irresponsible as we currently allow and encourage them to be.

    My proof, adequate proof for me anyway, is currently in the next room from me.


    I recall one time about ten years ago, I was working in a certain neighborhood that had been largely populated (recently) by Slavic immigrants from Eastern European nations not long out from under the thumb of the USSR. I was working for the power company, investigating some confusion about who had what account in this neighborhood... which mainly involved matching meter serial numbers with addresses. I was walking around behind houses and through yards.

    As I approached this one place, and noted they had an old-fashioned root cellar dug behind the house, a boy about 13yo in company with two younger brothers emerged from a shed and approached me. "Hey, what are you doing?" the 13yo boy asked me.

    I smiled and mentally prepared to explain myself to a 13yo boy, man-to-kid.... then I got a little closer, stopped, and took a good look at his eyes, his face, and took in his body language. This was no little boy trying to awkwardly pass himself off as protector-of-the-family-home.... this kid was dead serious. He'd been working in the garden, and had on rubber boots, and held a metal hoe casually in his hand... and I suddenly sensed that taking him lightly would be a mistake that might end with me taking that hoe upside my head.

    There was no nervousness or awkwardness about him, and surprisingly enough I got no sense of ego either. The feeling I got was that he was calmly awaiting an answer and assuming it would be a good one... but that if I turned out to be some kind of intruder that he was perfectly prepared to take on a grown man who'd make three of him with that hoe, in deadly earnest, to protect his home and family.

    I quickly adjusted my mindset to "man talking to another man as equals", and explained my purpose. He listened carefully, watching my face as if for cues as to the honesty of my answer, then nodded soberly and said "Okay then," and went on about his business.


    Got to tell ya, this made one hell of an impression on me. I don't know what that kid went thru before his family made it to America... but he wasn't a kid anymore.


    Now don't misunderstand me... I wouldn't want any child of mine to have to grow up under the deadly serious day-by-day survival stuff THIS kid had probably gone thru back home... but it got the point across to me, and the best way I can express that point is to say that the irresponsible adolescence that we (the collective we) assume to be some kind of necessary stage everyone goes through.... is actually "optional".

    Again, I'm not saying that I'd want to raise a bunch of DEADLY-serious kids who were deprived of half their childhood like that.... but it PROVES to me even further than a LOT of the immaturity and irresponsibility we see in modern 16-22yo's does not have to be that way, and probably ought to be done better.... some kind of happy medium midway between young Mr. Slavic Seriousness and the average braindead US teen.



    Some food for thought anyway.

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  2. #142
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I'm not addressing anyone in particular. There have been several posters who have advocated for 16 years old or even younger to be held legally responsible as adults, so I guess I'm addressing anyone who believes that.

    I agree with what you stated above, except I have to stress that just because that's the way it should be doesn't mean that's the way it ever will be.
    Ignorance of the law is not a defense, and being under 18 is not a de facto negation of mens rea. Teenagers can be tried as adults because they are fully capable and physiologically developed enough to know and understand the ramifications of breaking the law. It's that simple.

  3. #143
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Well sure, but IMO that would be more related to the level of danger to society that they pose, and of course intentional murder and rape would qualify as being dangerous.

    But I'm curious what you think about a case just within the past few years about a boy who shot and killed his stepmother, and he was 12 years old. Do you think he should spend the rest of his life in jail, as we might punish an adult for such a crime? Do you feel he could be rehabilitated because of his young age and taking into account that there may have been abuse/neglect or whatever in his life?


    It would depend on the totality of the context. Was he abused? Did he have any kind of mental disability? Was his post-crime psych profile normal or did it reveal something? Has he been diagnosed as a remorseless sociopath who could easily kill again, or is he a once-normal kid who found himself in an intolerable situation and only saw one way out?

    In brief, it's complicated.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  4. #144
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It would depend on the totality of the context. Was he abused? Did he have any kind of mental disability? Was his post-crime psych profile normal or did it reveal something? Has he been diagnosed as a remorseless sociopath who could easily kill again, or is he a once-normal kid who found himself in an intolerable situation and only saw one way out?

    In brief, it's complicated.


    You may disagree with me, but the tolerance for aberrant behavior amongst groups usually thought of as "normal" has led to the ability of many highly disturbed individuals to hide in plain sight.....................

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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Okay. But it isn't simply "the way it should be"... it is the way it CAN be. That is to say, that 16-22yo's do not HAVE to be as immature and irresponsible as we currently allow and encourage them to be.

    My proof, adequate proof for me anyway, is currently in the next room from me.


    I recall one time about ten years ago, I was working in a certain neighborhood that had been largely populated (recently) by Slavic immigrants from Eastern European nations not long out from under the thumb of the USSR. I was working for the power company, investigating some confusion about who had what account in this neighborhood... which mainly involved matching meter serial numbers with addresses. I was walking around behind houses and through yards.

    As I approached this one place, and noted they had an old-fashioned root cellar dug behind the house, a boy about 13yo in company with two younger brothers emerged from a shed and approached me. "Hey, what are you doing?" the 13yo boy asked me.

    I smiled and mentally prepared to explain myself to a 13yo boy, man-to-kid.... then I got a little closer, stopped, and took a good look at his eyes, his face, and took in his body language. This was no little boy trying to awkwardly pass himself off as protector-of-the-family-home.... this kid was dead serious. He'd been working in the garden, and had on rubber boots, and held a metal hoe casually in his hand... and I suddenly sensed that taking him lightly would be a mistake that might end with me taking that hoe upside my head.

    There was no nervousness or awkwardness about him, and surprisingly enough I got no sense of ego either. The feeling I got was that he was calmly awaiting an answer and assuming it would be a good one... but that if I turned out to be some kind of intruder that he was perfectly prepared to take on a grown man who'd make three of him with that hoe, in deadly earnest, to protect his home and family.

    I quickly adjusted my mindset to "man talking to another man as equals", and explained my purpose. He listened carefully, watching my face as if for cues as to the honesty of my answer, then nodded soberly and said "Okay then," and went on about his business.


    Got to tell ya, this made one hell of an impression on me. I don't know what that kid went thru before his family made it to America... but he wasn't a kid anymore.


    Now don't misunderstand me... I wouldn't want any child of mine to have to grow up under the deadly serious day-by-day survival stuff THIS kid had probably gone thru back home... but it got the point across to me, and the best way I can express that point is to say that the irresponsible adolescence that we (the collective we) assume to be some kind of necessary stage everyone goes through.... is actually "optional".

    Again, I'm not saying that I'd want to raise a bunch of DEADLY-serious kids who were deprived of half their childhood like that.... but it PROVES to me even further than a LOT of the immaturity and irresponsibility we see in modern 16-22yo's does not have to be that way, and probably ought to be done better.... some kind of happy medium midway between young Mr. Slavic Seriousness and the average braindead US teen.



    Some food for thought anyway
    .
    I'm glad you included that last part, because I was going to say they probably come from an entirely different culture than ours, where there aren't many choices, and that is not a good way to live. Our children can enjoy their childhood, and I don't think THAT is what necessarily makes them irresponsible. I think it's a lot to do with just our way of life. There are a lot of latch key kids who don't have any parents around, and a lot of times that's because the parents don't have a choice and both have to work all the time in order to care for their family. I think that has a lot to do with it. A lot of it might have to do with our media, social networking, all kinds of other things.

    I guess what I'm trying to say, the short version , is that it's not necessarily all the parents fault either, or at least not directly or intentionally.

  6. #146
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It would depend on the totality of the context. Was he abused? Did he have any kind of mental disability? Was his post-crime psych profile normal or did it reveal something? Has he been diagnosed as a remorseless sociopath who could easily kill again, or is he a once-normal kid who found himself in an intolerable situation and only saw one way out?

    In brief, it's complicated.
    Well, these are all reasons why it's much more complicated of a situation when it comes to teens or children who commit violence. It's different from an adult situation where we could say, well he could have just walked away and left or avoided the confrontation. There are other variables when it comes to children and teens who might be still dependent upon their family for survival.

  7. #147
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I'm glad you included that last part, because I was going to say they probably come from an entirely different culture than ours, where there aren't many choices, and that is not a good way to live. Our children can enjoy their childhood, and I don't think THAT is what necessarily makes them irresponsible. I think it's a lot to do with just our way of life. There are a lot of latch key kids who don't have any parents around, and a lot of times that's because the parents don't have a choice and both have to work all the time in order to care for their family. I think that has a lot to do with it. A lot of it might have to do with our media, social networking, all kinds of other things.

    I guess what I'm trying to say, the short version , is that it's not necessarily all the parents fault either, or at least not directly or intentionally.


    Oh no, it's not ALL the parent's fault. Society and media go a long way towards encouraging irresponsible and immature behavior in the 16-22 crowd also. The way we do "school" doesn't help much either... and probably does a lot of damage actually.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  8. #148
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    So a few years ago I heard this story. I tend to think it is true.

    A former boxer, pretty good boxer, he became a policeman after he had a good boxing career.
    One night he was called to respond to a disturbance at a night club. Some kids were fighting so he had to break them up. Caught one, asked him to get in the car to drive him to the police station. The kid, teenager, cried and said something like this:
    -Please mister, at least let me tie my shoelaces.
    The policeman accepted... the kid went down, took a knife he had hidden in his shoes and sliced the policemans' throat. He was dead before he hit the ground.

    Now this is to emphasize that anyone, no matter how well trained, how strong, how anything you want, can be killed by anyone else no matter how weak, how untrained, etc. As long as there is a way to do it.
    Where I grew up and the practices and circumstances of it all, the average 15 year male could rather easily and quickly beat down any typical adult regardless of size and doing as much damage as the boy wished.

    The greatest gymnasts (female) in the world are what? Age 12? 13? Young people tend to be extremely fast and their general lesser body mass adds to the speed-element. "Power" in some regards - particularly impact force - is not a factor of muscularity at all. It is simple science, a measure of mass (weight) and velocity (speed). Moreover, 99% of people, men or women, are not skilled fighters - though may have some experience and training. What that lack of skills equates to is a 99 pound weakling can get in a lucky blow - and there are usually items to be immediately used as weapons. Even if a person is "big and strong," that does not generally equate to having a body that withstand more damage.

    Other than if both are just clumsy or the older one is just seriously heavier and the younger one pencil thin, if I only knew one of the males was 16 and the other 46, I'd bet on the 16 year old. That old guy probably still thinks he's tough and maybe he is, but that kid is THE FLASH in comparative speed. I'm only in my mid 30s, but if myself now came up against myself when I was 16, the only possible chance my 30ish self would have is if I could get hold of that 16 year old and use my extra 50 pounds and greater muscle mass to restrain him and do disabling damage to him while doing so.

    On maturity? Younger people are less mature GENERALLY, but that is largely relevant to how the kid is raised too. There are 50 years olds who are still juvenile in maturity and their have been 15 years who thru reason of necessity are raising their own siblings as parent - and doing so well.

    The LAW has to pick-an-age, and therefore will get it wrong for certain individuals who are MORE mature OR LESS mature than the legal standard. I think where the law is at right now is just fine. And someone pointing to someone or some situation where younger should be considered an adult, I could point to people and situations of people over the age of legal adult status who shouldn't have it.

    I would even speculate that there are people on this forum in their 50s and 60s, maybe just a few, who seem like they should be more considered like adolescents than adults.

    Finally, yes, I think someone 16, 17, 18 years old can make a great parent and someone in their 20s and 30s can make a rotten parent. There are pluses of gaining maturity and experience, but that does not follow any universal time-line and is highly individualized.

  9. #149
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    The goal of a parent should be to lead their children, step by step, towards being responsible, capable adults. TOO many parents instead take opposite extremes. One set just let their kids do any damn thing they want with no guidance whatsoever. The others treat and shelter the children like children until the graduate from high school. For both, when adult life comes, they are totally incapable and lost. One evidence of this is how many families now have adult children who have never left home or returned quickly. Just tonight, talking to someone we know, she has 3 adult children as old as 30 still living at home.

  10. #150
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Firstly, Travyon was not the criminal, he was the victim in this case.

    Secondly, the age of a suspect, even if it is a dead one is important and relevant. If a 10 year old gets peer pressured into the home of silly mr. Johnson and mr. Johnson recognizes that it is a 10 year old and still kills him then yes, the age of the suspect is important. And a security guard who shoots an armed robber will almost surely never be in trouble, except if he should see the weapon is a brightly colored water spraying pistol but I doubt that will ever happen.

    And age is important, in the US 12 year old children can be tried as adults or get decades worth of jail time, you can shoot a gun at just about any age, you can drive a car by 16, join the army etc. but when it comes to alcohol the state says young people are not able to drink until 21.

    Also the age is important as a learning tool, when a 15 year old bank robber is shoot, a 14 year old rapist is arrested it gives parents a teaching moment for their children. Learn, don't do drugs and stay on the good side of the law and you will most likely never be accused of murder, rape, etc.

    It would be difficult to find a message on the forum this week I more disagree with.

    An 14 year old rapist is a teaching moment for the parents? What the hell does that mean?

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