View Poll Results: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent

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Thread: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent

  1. #111
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    spleef... haven't heard that in a while.

    Amazingly enough, with the help of MSM, many still think he was a 'little' boy.
    Change the "many" to some and we will have some truth.
    And, I could care less about what "some" "think" .
    I use both Fox, MSN, and NPR for the info...

  2. #112
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    It's funny how your entire point revolves around how YOU "think" things ought to be. Not very logical to attack my position when your's is based on the same mode of thought. Your "facts" as just personal observations and assumptions. They are not "children" in the purset sense of the term, they are young adults and are capable of dealing with the responsibility for their actions.

    The main difference between a 16 year-old and a 60 year-old is experience. That answers your "automobile accident" claim.

    I know I know, you are going to bring up that "brain development" stuff. Well that brain difference has been around ever since mankind has walked the earth and didn't make a bit of difference in "adulthood" for teenanger's in all that time. THAT"S a FACT.

    If a 16 year-old is involvded in a break-in, assault, murder, or any other violent crime...he should be treated as an adult for engaging in an adult crime. The ONLY difference I would allow is separation in juvenile penal institutions until 21, then transfer to "The Big House" if his crime was a "Big House" crime. That IS an opinion.
    Interesting! I see how you avoided addressing any of the points I made. How do you make up for the fact that a teenager is NOT an adult in today's society. Sorry but that is the fact here. You may want to deny that, but all the evidence points to it.

    No, they should only be charged as an adult when they are fully an adult. Since they could not possibly support themselves or a family and are still dependent upon their parents (the majority of times) at 16 years old, then that person is still a child.

    The reason they get into automobile accidents is because of how the brain is wired. They are reckless drivers, check the stats. They are reckless drivers because they normally don't have any fear, which is normal for a CHILD. Experience is CERTAINLY not the only difference. These statistics span from ages of 16 to I think early 20s. Google stuff and learn. It doesn't take YEARS of experience to know not to speed or drive recklessly either, so that point is rather silly. They do it because they THINK they can handle it.

    What you stated about in your last paragraph is already how it works. We don't put 16 year old kids in gen pop in prisons with adults. Unless you are referring to separate them from younger juveniles, I can't be sure. It's rather vague.

  3. #113
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I noticed that some of the Treyvon Martin supporters keep bringing up the fact he was a kid and I know some people think it does matter that an assailant was a minor.So I thought I would ask the following question- Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,bank robber, attempted rapist/murder relevant? For example if a burglar is killed inside someone's home should the homeowner be in legal trouble if that burglar is a minor? If a bank robber is killed while trying to rob a bank and that bank robber is a minor should that concerned citizen or security guard be in legal trouble?
    To me his age is irrelevant. If someone breaks into my house then I'll do what I have to to protect my family or property. What I won't do is go follow them around or call the police on someone that is just standing outside talking on the phone. The Zimmerman case is so far and away unrelated from a case where someone breaks in to your house that any kind of comparison is simply laughable.
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    uh that is so small as to be stupid. Do you want registration? given less than 3% of criminals get their guns from private sales, its pretty much a waste of resources
    **Thirty Minutes Later**
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you are confused. I never denied that many criminals get guns in private sales.

  4. #114
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Interesting! I see how you avoided addressing any of the points I made. How do you make up for the fact that a teenager is NOT an adult in today's society. Sorry but that is the fact here. You may want to deny that, but all the evidence points to it.
    I only ignored it because I thought I had addressed it in prior posts. (Sigh) Yes, currently our society considers people 16 and 17 (even 18 -20 regarding drinking except when you are in the military and on a military installation) "minors." That's been the case for about 100 - 120 years? Not sure offhand, exactly when the first child labor laws came into effect which applied to people 16 -18. That's a drop in the bucket for human existence, not even a "second" on the time clock. That has mostly to do with the affluence of our current society, which could change at any time in the next few years. Doesn't change the fact that a person at that age is capable of making, acting on, and dealing with adult decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    No, they should only be charged as an adult when they are fully an adult. Since they could not possibly support themselves or a family and are still dependent upon their parents (the majority of times) at 16 years old, then that person is still a child.
    Now, who is drifting off point? The OP asked about age in respect to criminality. I provided a valid position on it. I've already told you we are simply going to have to agree to disagree because in dangerous situations I don't think being 16 deserves an automatic pass, while you do. Our society's current stance on coddling teenagers does not change this point of view for me in the slightest, because I think it is the primary cause leading to teenage foolhardiness.

    Forgive me if I don't address your last couple of points because, to me at least, they remain irrelevant.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  5. #115
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    That's less clear to me...but I would accept it as a principled stance, anyway...only if they had the rights and priveleges of an adult.

    If they don't have the rights, then it's wrong to demand the responsibility. In fact, it's rather backwards, more along the lines of police-state thinking, in which your responsibilities supercede your rights in every instance.
    Well, currently at 16 in most states you can get a drivers license. At 16 in most states you've reached the age of sexual consent. At 16 in most states you are able to marry (although a number require parental consent). At 16 in all states you can get a job. At 16 in most states you can be emancipated and be considered a legal adult.

    It is true that our society legally considers 16 and 17 year-olds minors in most areas, and I am not necessarily advocating this should change. What I am advocating is a move away from thinking of them as children and a move back towards using this period to instruct them on how to be good adults. In my view, you do that by giving them responsibility then making sure they are aware that they can and will be held responsible for their actions. At that point, just how responsible is determined on a case by case basis.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  6. #116
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Well, currently at 16 in most states you can get a drivers license. At 16 in most states you've reached the age of sexual consent. At 16 in most states you are able to marry (although a number require parental consent).
    With parental consent mean you do not have the rights of an adult. By definition.

    At 16 in all states you can get a job. At 16 in most states you can be emancipated and be considered a legal adult.
    You cannot get emancipated because you feel like it and consider yourself an adult, however. There needs be extenuating circumstances.

    At any rate, as you no doubt are aware, I could easily the name the "adult" things that 16-year-olds cannot do. So I'm not sure the point of any of these, since logically the exclusions roughly cancel them out.


    But yes, I agree with you that teenagers can and should be taught responsibility. But to mandate it through the state, as in "criminally an adult but not in any other way"--my single point of contention--is police state thinking. Again, by definition. (And you do have the word "libertarian" in your profile, after all).

    In other words, parents ought to teach their children more responsibility. Trite, but yes, perfectly reasonable.

    Legally?...nope.
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
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  7. #117
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    What is funny is that you seem to want to disregard facts for how you THINK things should be. Observe a group of 16 year old boys or girls, and then come back here and tell me that you think they are adults.
    .


    Hi. Observer of human nature here...

    I've spent time observing the behavior of the teenager in his natural habitat. Plus, I was one once, and I raised one.


    My conclusion: 16yo's in my day (late70s/early80s) were fairly crazy but still far more responsible than most current-day 16yo's. I've observed them in various settings and concluded most of them don't know water is wet or fire burns, and they're kind of vague on the idea that death is permanent. When they accumulate in herds, they lose IQ points.... one hundred teenagers within a ball-field sized area has the collective IQ of a smart shoelace.

    But then I look at my own son, who is 17... and who was deliberately and purposefully raised to be responsible and serious and to know reality down at the nitty-gritty-dirt level... and at 16 he was functionally an adult in most regards. I rarely issue "commands" to him anymore... there's rarely ever any need. I offer advice and suggestions and general guidance (set the guardrails) and let him drive as he pleases as long as he stays on the metaphorical right road. It works for us... because I raised him that way on purpose.

    Of course, there was one unexpected side-effect... he can barely tolerate other teenagers and mostly prefers the company of adults. Hmmm.... on the whole that isn't the worst thing in the world either, since as I noted above teenage IQ declines in groups...

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  8. #118
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    With parental consent mean you do not have the rights of an adult. By definition.
    Yet once you ARE married you carry all the rights and responsibilities of marriage, your mommies and daddies notwithstanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    You cannot get emancipated because you feel like it and consider yourself an adult, however. There needs be extenuating circumstances.
    Not necessarily, that also depends on the state. Most states have an emancipation law allowing the appropriate level of Court (usually Juvenile Court) to review the request. Approval typically requires these conditions:

    (1) wishes to be free from parental control and protection and no longer needs that control and protection;
    (2) has sufficient money for the child's own support;
    (3) understands the consequences of being free from parental control and protection; and
    (4) has an acceptable plan for independent living.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    At any rate, as you no doubt are aware, I could easily the name the "adult" things that 16-year-olds cannot do. So I'm not sure the point of any of these, since logically the exclusions roughly cancel them out.
    No doubt. But my point was not to show such minors are now considered adults, simply to indicate in every state they are already granted certain adult responsibilites but few people seem to be preparing them for adulthood. Suddenly, they are 18 and **** hits the fan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strucker View Post
    But yes, I agree with you that teenagers can and should be taught responsibility. But to mandate it through the state, as in "criminally an adult but not in any other way"--my single point of contention--is police state thinking. Again, by definition. (And you do have the word "libertarian" in your profile, after all).
    The OP asked should age have any effect on a list of criminal acts. I gave my opinion based on age breakdowns. I think that a "minor" aged 16 or older who takes an adult action like those listed should be considered an adult in the event he has been harmed by his actions. Don't cry "Oh, he's a child, you should have waited before you shot him!" If he's pointing a gun at me, trying to stab me with a knife, has broken into my house to do some criminal act in the middle of the night...and finds himself dead or wounded as a result? TOUGH NUGGIES.

    On the rest (about parental rather that State responsibilities) we agree.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  9. #119
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Hi. Observer of human nature here...

    I've spent time observing the behavior of the teenager in his natural habitat. Plus, I was one once, and I raised one.


    My conclusion: 16yo's in my day (late70s/early80s) were fairly crazy but still far more responsible than most current-day 16yo's. I've observed them in various settings and concluded most of them don't know water is wet or fire burns, and they're kind of vague on the idea that death is permanent. When they accumulate in herds, they lose IQ points.... one hundred teenagers within a ball-field sized area has the collective IQ of a smart shoelace.

    But then I look at my own son, who is 17... and who was deliberately and purposefully raised to be responsible and serious and to know reality down at the nitty-gritty-dirt level... and at 16 he was functionally an adult in most regards. I rarely issue "commands" to him anymore... there's rarely ever any need. I offer advice and suggestions and general guidance (set the guardrails) and let him drive as he pleases as long as he stays on the metaphorical right road. It works for us... because I raised him that way on purpose.

    Of course, there was one unexpected side-effect... he can barely tolerate other teenagers and mostly prefers the company of adults. Hmmm.... on the whole that isn't the worst thing in the world either, since as I noted above teenage IQ declines in groups...
    And in what ways is he an adult? How do you test for such things? Do you think he could support a family and raise a child?

  10. #120
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    And in what ways is he an adult? How do you test for such things? Do you think he could support a family and raise a child?

    While I would prefer he wait on that (he is currently engaged in vocational training that will not be complete for a couple more years)... if he had to, yes I think he could support a family and raise a child. Probably fairly well too. He is terribly serious of mind and dreadfully responsible.


    You DO know that married-with-a-baby-en-route at 17 or 18 used to be pretty commonplace, just a generation ago right?

    Not saying its ideal, but it USED to work out reasonably well for millions and millions of folks...

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