View Poll Results: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent

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  • yes

    11 18.64%
  • no

    36 61.02%
  • maybe/other

    12 20.34%
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Thread: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder relavent

  1. #101
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    In questioning the prosecutor, Reuters asked about killing a "YOUNG child just walking home from the store" - meaning Reuters is going to continue to lie in its incessant campaign against American gun ownership.

    BUT I answered MAYBE, because "burglars" were included in the list. For home defense we actual have our main firearms for that having a first round of a rubber bullet (or beanbag) if a shotgun. It would take 1/2 second at the most for a lethal round if truly necessary. Many on the forum criticize this, but in fact we often do have children at our home, many guests, many visitors and young kids can also be burglars. The rubber bullet/beanbag is a safeguard in that just-in-case a firearm left out, not correctly put away, or somehow gotten into by one of the younger kids - and because we would not want kill a friend, relative or guest - or an 11 year old who snuck in at night to steal something - ie burglar.
    Interesting, I didn't know you could load bean bags into shotguns or rubber bullets into firearms as a first round. That sounds like a good idea, joko. I haven't read the criticisms...but...a firearm loaded with rubber bullets and "if left out, not correctly put away, or somehow got into the hands of younger kids" ...can still be lethal. I've seen the welts those rubber bullets produce and they ain't pretty and if one hit a child in the head it could easily kill them and if that didn't, the second more lethal round surely would. There really is no excuse for a leaving a loaded weapon easily accessible in a house with children present, whether it has rubber bullets in it or not.

    Take "burglar" off the list and you have violent crimes, so then it doesn't matter - although I could bandy the word "assault" in the sense of some young kid throwing a violent tantrum. But "burglary?" Yes, I think age matters particularly in the castle doctrine states where you can shoot a burglar basically just to shoot them. I do not want to kill a young kid trying to steal something. I do not want any lethal accidental gun deaths at our home either - and that is the 1/2 second compromise for those reasons. But I also think that margin actually allows us to shoot faster in any questionable situation - plus that'd be a damn good lessen for a 13 year old sneaking in to steal something anyway.
    Totally agree...except for the reason I mentioned above. If you're worried about not shooting a young kid trying to steal (which is not that uncommon) then why don't you get a security camera instead? That way you have the evidence and the kid isn't physically hurt or worse.

    Even the castle doctrine mentions 'reasonable' and 'reasonable force' doesn't it?

  2. #102
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    By 16? No, they need to start realizing that if they think they are adults, they need to start acting like one, and also expect to be treated like an adult.
    That's less clear to me...but I would accept it as a principled stance, anyway...only if they had the rights and priveleges of an adult.

    If they don't have the rights, then it's wrong to demand the responsibility. In fact, it's rather backwards, more along the lines of police-state thinking, in which your responsibilities supercede your rights in every instance.
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

  3. #103
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I think I answered the first question in my last post. Hopefully that was satisfactory, because with 17 trillion dollars in government deficit, businesses moving industry out of the country, others reducing full-time workers and replacing them with part-timers and temps, the huge student loan debt, the huge credit card debt, and banks trying to inflate the housing market again...I see the storm clouds a-comin.

    I voted "maybe/other" because I think we have been doing teenagers a disservice by training them to think "it's all good until you turn 18." Especially when it really isn't.

    So for me, if a juvenile is 13 or under, it should make a difference how they are treated in the OP's situation. If they are 14 or 15, I'm kinda on the fence. By 16? No, they need to start realizing that if they think they are adults, they need to start acting like one, and also expect to be treated like an adult.
    What is funny is that you seem to want to disregard facts for how you THINK things should be. Observe a group of 16 year old boys or girls, and then come back here and tell me that you think they are adults.

    Gosh, I spent all that time explaining to you how I was basically forced into an adult situation at the age of 16 and how much it overwhelmed me, how I was not ready for that kind of adult responsibility and how it affected my life, but you just brushed that off as if it is nothing. So in other words, you don't care about teenagers and whether or not THEY are ready to take on life as adults with all the best preparation; all you care about is that you somehow think it is "unfair" that they are considered children now and think they should have to be more responsible, regardless of reality.

    Thankfully, we try to base laws on FACTS rather than opinions. A simple fact that can be proven regarding just how responsible teens are can be proven by looking up teen automobile accident rates. Also, perhaps you should do some research on all of the information I gave, like the MRI scans which show actual PHYSICAL differences between the brain of a teen and the brain of an adult.

  4. #104
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Well.. I remember reading a news story a while back about a young boy given a gun shooting his brother. So I ask you...Was Age relevant?

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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    You do realize that 16 IS the age of consent in the majority of American States? 31 plus D.C. to be exact. There are 8 where it is 17 and only 11 where it is 18. Also, Most European nations are at 16, with the exception of maybe 4 where it is 18? (Poland, Andorra, Slovakia and some other...) in fact 90% of the nations of the world consider 16 the age of consent, including Canada.

    I'm not asking to lower it. I am simply stating that if it weren't for our current standards of health, food availability, lack of predation, and so on...16 would be the age when a young man and woman started a family and took care of their own business. History shows they were both fully capable and did it well, if they were brought up expecting they would do so.
    I just have to point out how this statement completely ignores how much life has changed. Do you want more burger flippers and minimum-wage earners? Because 16 years old is certainly not old enough to be educated enough to join the work force and be successful.

    If this is what you want, I certainly hope you are prepared to raise minimum wage to say 12-15 dollars an hour so that these 16 year olds who lack an education that is complete enough for them to be able to get a job that pays more than minimum wage so that they can provide for their families.

    Do you realize how hypocritical your stance on this issue is?

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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    I feel that the age of official adulthood should be 18 years old because that gives a person sufficient time to mature, obtain some kind of experience (but even that is only a little), and at least complete a primary education, and even that is less than sufficient to obtain any kind of good employment in today's society. THINK PEOPLE! Good God!

  7. #107
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    What I am against is stupidity.....and conservatism......even if it is necessary..
    It is NOT necessary to kill the thief.
    Has anyone ever heard of "non-lethal" ???
    And , YES ! We should know the age of the criminal..
    In this case, the teenager should be treated as an adult....and was....un-necessarily.

  8. #108
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    It was relevant in this case because the media manipulated the public into believing Trayvon was just a "little boy" skipping home with his little bag of candy as opposed to a full grown young man sauntering home after smoking a big spleef.
    Bull !
    Some media may have tried this sham, but I trust any one source - NEVER.
    And, Martin was neither..
    That he is dead , un-necessarily , is lost with the conservatives.

  9. #109
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Old enough to do the crime, old enough to except the consequences.
    To an extent............
    A two year old can "murder"..
    And a 20 year old can still be a child...
    This line has two dimensions..
    There must be even more than a "double standard" ...high court determined standards..

  10. #110
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    Re: Is the age of a dead burglar,assailant,armed robber, attempted rapist/murder rela

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    What is funny is that you seem to want to disregard facts for how you THINK things should be. Observe a group of 16 year old boys or girls, and then come back here and tell me that you think they are adults.

    Gosh, I spent all that time explaining to you how I was basically forced into an adult situation at the age of 16 and how much it overwhelmed me, how I was not ready for that kind of adult responsibility and how it affected my life, but you just brushed that off as if it is nothing. So in other words, you don't care about teenagers and whether or not THEY are ready to take on life as adults with all the best preparation; all you care about is that you somehow think it is "unfair" that they are considered children now and think they should have to be more responsible, regardless of reality.

    Thankfully, we try to base laws on FACTS rather than opinions. A simple fact that can be proven regarding just how responsible teens are can be proven by looking up teen automobile accident rates. Also, perhaps you should do some research on all of the information I gave, like the MRI scans which show actual PHYSICAL differences between the brain of a teen and the brain of an adult.
    It's funny how your entire point revolves around how YOU "think" things ought to be. Not very logical to attack my position when your's is based on the same mode of thought. Your "facts" as just personal observations and assumptions. They are not "children" in the purset sense of the term, they are young adults and are capable of dealing with the responsibility for their actions.

    The main difference between a 16 year-old and a 60 year-old is experience. That answers your "automobile accident" claim.

    I know I know, you are going to bring up that "brain development" stuff. Well that brain difference has been around ever since mankind has walked the earth and didn't make a bit of difference in "adulthood" for teenanger's in all that time. THAT"S a FACT.

    If a 16 year-old is involvded in a break-in, assault, murder, or any other violent crime...he should be treated as an adult for engaging in an adult crime. The ONLY difference I would allow is separation in juvenile penal institutions until 21, then transfer to "The Big House" if his crime was a "Big House" crime. That IS an opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I feel that the age of official adulthood should be 18 years old because that gives a person sufficient time to mature, obtain some kind of experience (but even that is only a little), and at least complete a primary education, and even that is less than sufficient to obtain any kind of good employment in today's society. THINK PEOPLE! Good God!
    Sorry but THIS is just an emotional appeal, also based on your personal opinions developed from personal experiences. My experiences are different. The world is full of people who have lived happy, successful lives starting them younger than your arbitrary 18 age minimum. Your "18" choice is not even supported by your reference to "brain differences" which would push the age, depending on the person, back to 21 or 22 to remain consistent with your idea of actual maturity.

    Ignoring the fact that people even younger than 16 have, for the bulk of human existence, been fully functional as adults in society, simply because you felt unprepared for the responsibility of bad choices made at that age remains not a fact, but a personal opinion.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 07-19-13 at 11:43 AM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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