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Thread: Should compulsory education of our youth be eliminated?

  1. #11
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    Re: Should compulsory education of our youth be eliminated?

    I have HUGE problems with compulsory education, where in the far past likely would not - when education was solely academic. It is not anymore. Here are the problems I have:

    1. Liability to parents and children. At any time, the school can become law enforcement in the most extreme degree. A 10 year old child bites into a piece of bread the wrong way and the child is taken off in handcuffs because it looks like a gun and CPS is at the parent's house.
    Some schools have become so radically liberal and so intensely hateful of such as the military, that any kid playing cops and robbers is treated as a terrorist and this put into the child's permanent record.

    2. Political correctness. Political correctness has become the primary goal of many school districts. It is far more important that the children are taught to hate religion, love Obama, accept homosexuality as fine, etc etc - regardless of and despite of parents.

    3. Teaching children to despise their parents. For many schools, if the parents are religious, conservative etc, the children will be required to be tested and give answers essentially declaring their parents are ignorant bigots to be despised.

    4. Standardized tests. You child can be Einstein in mathematics or Stephen King in writing or one of the greatest of all artists, but lacking in another area will essentially obliterate a child's academic future.

    5. Using schools to gain information on parents. Children are not given Miranda. Nor are parents even notified if a child is going to be questions. Little children can answer questions in ways they are suggested to answer.

    6. Danger to the children. Most schools essentially advertise that all the children are unprotected and that would be a criminal offense for anyone to be able to be in a position to protect them. Requiring children be taken from the safety of their homes and put into an open and advertised free and unstoppable shooting gallery is not something any parent should be required to have their children essentially seized by the government for.

    7. Shocking as it may be, some parents don't want their 13 year old given condoms and explained about "safe sex," when many (if not most) parents don't believe there is such a thing as a 13 year old having "safe" sex - neither psychologically or health-wise, and telling a 13 year old there is such a thing and giving tools to have it is, to them, is as corrupting and dangerous to their child as is possible.

    In short, it no longer is just compulsory education. It is compulsory social, moral, ideological, political and both forced and tested indoctrination by any wackjob teacher or administrator, and in ways that can cause real and lifelong damage to the child's formal record - and that of the parents too.

    I do not agree with the reasoning of the OP directly in that society and for the sake of the child an EDUCATION should be required. However, compulsory education to a specific school the government specifically requires should not be - because schools just aren't about education anymore. They are about indoctrination and they are about taking risks with your children's minds, morals and physical safety - which can be diametrically opposite and requiring students to express contempt of their parent(s) morals, values and home education.

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    Re: Should compulsory education of our youth be eliminated?

    It absolutely should be abolished...and if your kids are too uneducated to even hold a job at McDonalds, it's your burden to support them on your dime for as long as you live.

  3. #13
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    Re: Should compulsory education of our youth be eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Smeagol View Post
    Vouchers are better than what we have now but a full refund tax credit would be best. With vouchers there's more of a risk of government control. "Schools that accept our vouchers must teach (or indoctrinate); a,b,c,x,y,z." If its a tax credit, the parents pays the bill but is then directly refunded in full. Compare to someone donating money to a charity and getting a tax deduction vs. the control that would come with the government giving money directly to the charity.

    But I think being educated at either an accredited school and/or students being able to meet annual testing standards should be mandatory up to 19 or completion of 12th grade, whichever comes first with voluntary education through a bachelors degree, indirectly funded by tax-payers and may be delayed once 12th grade is completed.
    Vouchers yes, tax credits no. Tax credits are just favoritism for the rich. I would guess that well over half of parents of school age child don't have the income for which a tax credit would have any value whatsoever.

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    Re: Should compulsory education of our youth be eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I have HUGE problems with compulsory education, where in the far past likely would not - when education was solely academic. It is not anymore. Here are the problems I have:

    1. Liability to parents and children. At any time, the school can become law enforcement in the most extreme degree. A 10 year old child bites into a piece of bread the wrong way and the child is taken off in handcuffs because it looks like a gun and CPS is at the parent's house.
    Some schools have become so radically liberal and so intensely hateful of such as the military, that any kid playing cops and robbers is treated as a terrorist and this put into the child's permanent record.

    2. Political correctness. Political correctness has become the primary goal of many school districts. It is far more important that the children are taught to hate religion, love Obama, accept homosexuality as fine, etc etc - regardless of and despite of parents.

    3. Teaching children to despise their parents. For many schools, if the parents are religious, conservative etc, the children will be required to be tested and give answers essentially declaring their parents are ignorant bigots to be despised.

    4. Standardized tests. You child can be Einstein in mathematics or Stephen King in writing or one of the greatest of all artists, but lacking in another area will essentially obliterate a child's academic future.

    5. Using schools to gain information on parents. Children are not given Miranda. Nor are parents even notified if a child is going to be questions. Little children can answer questions in ways they are suggested to answer.

    6. Danger to the children. Most schools essentially advertise that all the children are unprotected and that would be a criminal offense for anyone to be able to be in a position to protect them. Requiring children be taken from the safety of their homes and put into an open and advertised free and unstoppable shooting gallery is not something any parent should be required to have their children essentially seized by the government for.

    7. Shocking as it may be, some parents don't want their 13 year old given condoms and explained about "safe sex," when many (if not most) parents don't believe there is such a thing as a 13 year old having "safe" sex - neither psychologically or health-wise, and telling a 13 year old there is such a thing and giving tools to have it is, to them, is as corrupting and dangerous to their child as is possible.

    In short, it no longer is just compulsory education. It is compulsory social, moral, ideological, political and both forced and tested indoctrination by any wackjob teacher or administrator, and in ways that can cause real and lifelong damage to the child's formal record - and that of the parents too.

    I do not agree with the reasoning of the OP directly in that society and for the sake of the child an EDUCATION should be required. However, compulsory education to a specific school the government specifically requires should not be - because schools just aren't about education anymore. They are about indoctrination and they are about taking risks with your children's minds, morals and physical safety - which can be diametrically opposite and requiring students to express contempt of their parent(s) morals, values and home education.
    While I understand your concerns, much of what you mention I believe likely to be the minority of situations, or a groups overstatement of the problems. While I have encountered several of these incidents, none of them were much of a problem to resolve. I must admit though, I monitor every assignment the school gives my kids. Primarily to make sure my kids turn in the work required, but to also filter out the nonsense of which there has been plenty.

    We need to teach the children to think critically about everything, including themselves as well as administrators or "those in power". Teach them how to critically analyze something to come to a logical opinion or decision, and teach them WHY this is important. These teachings seem to be in rare supply over the last 20 or more years.

    And.. as a parent... KNOW YOUR RIGHTS. I cannot stress that enough.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    Aristotle
    Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)

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    Re: Should compulsory education of our youth be eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by HelplessHoping View Post
    And.. as a parent... KNOW YOUR RIGHTS. I cannot stress that enough.
    These days, EVERYTHING is a damn right. This is why so many kids these days are belligerent, undisciplined, and socially ignorant. Public schools have absolutely no power these days, and parents (by and large) simply don't give a damn about anything beyond their own noses.

    In the days where a principal could take a paddle to an unruly child, you didn't see but the most miniscule fraction of the problems that schools have today.

    Give schools more power and strip them away from parents who don't deserve it. If they don't like it, they can resort to homeschooling and pray that their kids don't turn 18 and become socially inept and intellectually inferior.

    Or we can do the voucher thing and let the system pick winners and losers. Frankly, some kids these days have time wasted on them if you attempt to teach them anything beyond giving change to a dollar and pushing the right button on the register.

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    Re: Should compulsory education of our youth be eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by pbrauer View Post
    Utah lawmaker calls for end of compulsory education | Deseret News
    SALT LAKE CITY Compulsory education laws have resulted in parents disengaging themselves from the responsibility to oversee the education of their children and have caused schools to falter under the burden of being all things to all people.

    Those points are among the arguments made by Sen. Aaron Osmond, R-South Jordan, in an article posted Friday on the blog of the Utah State Senate, in which Osmond called for the end of compulsory education in the state.

    "Some parents act as if the responsibility to educate, and even care for their child, is primarily the responsibility of the public school system," Osmond wrote. "As a result, our teachers and schools have been forced to become surrogate parents, expected to do everything from behavioral counseling, to providing adequate nutrition, to teaching sex education, as well as ensuring full college and career readiness."

    Osmond wrote further that in the current state of public education, teachers do not receive meaningful support from parents, while at the same time parents become frustrated that schools are not able to meet the individual needs of their children. Osmond told the Deseret News that there is a need to shift the public mindset to viewing learning as an opportunity as opposed to an obligation, while also reinforcing the idea of liberty and choice.

    ...
    Nope.I do not care if the child is home-schooled, goes to private school or to public school.Children need to be educated. Uneducated children grow up to ignorant adults who become a burden to tax payers. I could care less if someone's father or grandpa made it in life with only a elementary grade education or no education what so ever, this isn't the 1970s or 1980s.Heck my My grandpa only had a elementary school education, worked for my city's water and sewer department,owns his own house,worked his way up to supervisor position, saved up for retirement, and has a pension and social security and now he is living comfortable. Most people today will not be able to do that.Most employers today unless they only hire illegals are not going to hire someone with little to no education due to the fact the vast majority of working age people have at least high school diploma or a Good Enough Diploma(G.E.D.).
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  7. #17
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    Re: Should compulsory education of our youth be eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gipper View Post
    These days, EVERYTHING is a damn right. This is why so many kids these days are belligerent, undisciplined, and socially ignorant. Public schools have absolutely no power these days, and parents (by and large) simply don't give a damn about anything beyond their own noses.

    Give schools more power and strip them away from parents who don't deserve it. If they don't like it, they can resort to homeschooling and pray that their kids don't turn 18 and become socially inept and intellectually inferior.

    Or we can do the voucher thing and let the system pick winners and losers. Frankly, some kids these days have time wasted on them if you attempt to teach them anything beyond giving change to a dollar and pushing the right button on the register.
    Okay.. know your rights within reason, hope that's better! LOL Lots to respond to..and I have a lot of strong opinions/thoughts on this particular topic.

    I have a lot of theories and opinions on why some kids excel and others do not. I think it is wise, and not overly lenient to factor in what environment the child lives in. Again, within reason and none of my ideas include anything close to being PC. I simply understand the cognitive, psychological and social impact of outside factors on a child's ability to learn (this includes teenagers since cognitive thinking is still developing late into these years). Thus why we need to TEACH cognition, etc previously mentioned.

    These days everything is NOT a right. I submit the idea that no one in the system, not even some parents, can be bothered to say NO to a demand of "rights". No one makes them PROVE they have had their rights taken away, because no one wants to deal with the necessary steps NOR do they want to make the hard decisions and simply say... NO. That might make them look bad you see. Also, path of least resistance... yadda yadda..

    Heck, I am not sure kids these days even KNOW what REAL legal rights ARE.. much less who is violating them and how. They have been raised in a society that thinks opinions are facts and wants are rights. And we are allowing it every single day, without so much as a comment. Perspective is missing. No one ever learns by being hand held through life but someone must teach "critical thinking" because it is a skill. And teaching this skill takes TIME. A commodity in short supply for many parents for varying reasons.

    I am not a promoter of broad school administrative power either, to be honest. First I do not see them as capable of determining what actually falls under "their power" not even in private schools. I will not even comment on the majority of "charter" schools. Though not all of them are bad I realize. Second, I have seen, and been victim of, attempts by school administrators to exert control over issues that in no way could be considered "under their jurisdiction". Not once I might add... several times, across three different states. Both private and public schools. So, no.. school administrative powers SHOULD be limited.. but not to such a degree that a student is allowed to remain in a class where they have committed violence others (and other such issues). Schools could use some assistance in defining "weapon" though. LOL Expelling should be brought back. Followed closely by some form of corrective punnishment. EFFECTIVE corrective punnishment.

    The issue is that we are demanding a government to educate our children. And to be the dominant influence on their minds and behavior for a large part of the day. I never want my kids sole source of education to be a government system. It is MY responsibility to make sure my children learn not only how to behave but how to learn..how to form ideas, and how to execute those ideas.... for the rest of their lives. Also, it is my responsibility to make sure that my children learn how to be GOOD people. AND I see it as my responsibility that they learn the subjects they need to progress toward a degree. I refuse to lay it at the feet of the government.

    *Note my children attend both High School and College concurrently. The school they attend gives them the chance to get the high school diploma AND an Associates degree by the time they complete the 12th grade.*

    We have to stop accepting the lowest common denominator in behavior. I NEVER allowed my children to use the type of language, slurs, and behaviors that I hear (and witness) many, many other parents simply shake their head at and shrug.. some even laugh. THAT is where the problem starts. Yes, some kids are trouble issues, I know that. But MOST kids I suspect, are not. And THOSE kids are caught in the middle of the entire senseless mess.

    Are my children perfect? No.. my point is, they know how to behave in mixed social situations and they know how to determine wrong from right. Does this have much to do with the education system? I believe it is ONE factor, very much so. Among many.

    The frightening thing is that few people agree with any of my viewpoints on this subject labeling me a nut and refusing to honestly address the issues we see ALL are concerned about as well as blatantly dismissing how parents factor into the entire process. I suspect that if we as a nation, do not have this discussion WITHOUT the teachers unions involved, without politics or politicians involved, and without special interest groups whining.... public education will not be WORTH saving.

    All that drivel said, I do not believe that the time invested teaching anyone (especially the young) is a waste... not in the begining at least. Maybe I am naieve, I know when to cut my losses, but it takes quite a bit of serious consideration before I consider a human being a waste of my time.
    Last edited by HelplessHoping; 07-17-13 at 08:33 PM.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    Aristotle
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  8. #18
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    Re: Should compulsory education of our youth be eliminated?

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Vouchers yes, tax credits no. Tax credits are just favoritism for the rich. I would guess that well over half of parents of school age child don't have the income for which a tax credit would have any value whatsoever.
    You do understand the difference between a tax credit (or prebate if the fair tax is even emplemented) and a tax deduction?

    - a tax credit is a credit or dollar amount of cash added to your tax refund. If you owe, it's applied to your liability. If you are getting a $400 tax refund and on top of that, you have a $5,0000 tax credit for education , your check from the IRS will be $5,400.

    - a tax deduction, unlike a tax credit, only applies to people with tax filings complicated enough to need to itemize and only offsets their tax liability. If someone's income was $50,000 but they have $5000 in tax deductions, they end up paying taxes on just $45,000.
    Last edited by Smeagol; 07-17-13 at 08:40 PM.
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    Re: Should compulsory education of our youth be eliminated?

    Felt I had to apologize. I should have simply started a thread rather than post so much and so broadly. This was not the place.

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    Aristotle
    Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)

  10. #20
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    Re: Should compulsory education of our youth be eliminated?

    As near and dear as education is to my heart... I absolutely agree with this. The education of children is a family responsibility, and families should be allowed to pursue it in the manner they see fit.

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