View Poll Results: Why do you still support our system of government?

Voters
44. You may not vote on this poll
  • Iím one of the 15% - 20% who think it is working properly.

    3 6.82%
  • Iím one of the 15% - 20% but think any problems can easily be fixed.

    2 4.55%
  • Iím among the 15% - 20% but think itís not the system itís the party running it.

    1 2.27%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but think itís not the system but the people running it.

    17 38.64%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but donít think there is anything we can do about it.

    3 6.82%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but donít think thereís enough support to reinvent it.

    7 15.91%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% and am willing to act, just waiting for the right time.

    8 18.18%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but just donít give a crap.

    0 0%
  • Iím not American, and not that concernd about your mess.

    3 6.82%
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Thread: Why do you still support our system of government?

  1. #31
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    I feel that almost all problems with the government stem from special interest groups, corruption/bribery, and economy games. I'm for a project venus type solution. Not just America, but the entire world economy needs to have a complete reboot. Money just doesn't mean anything, it's printed on demand. Even the gold standard only worked because it was scarce, but that can be attacked in the same way that De Beers cornered the diamond market. Ultimately, the economy needs to be automated and socialized. That is a BIG issue between me and most libertarians; where they think a free market is the path to liberty, history has shown it to always be the path to slavery. All previous forms of communism and full socialism have failed due to the way the system was corrupted by the ruling class. If we could all accept a standardized/automated system of wealth distribution and completely separate "working" from obtaining wealth, all work would be voluntary. There is a level of automation where all distribution and utility architecture could be maintained by volunteers. For those that don't believe a society can run on volunteers, ask yourself why police do their job? Do you really think they do it for the money? There are people who WANT to help society, like activist groups. If we ran the government through volunteers and completely removed the ability to gain wealth or power, all the problems of our modern government/economy would be solved; there'd be no more special interest groups, no more corruption, no more ability to influence wealth distribution. It's been known for a long time now that intrinsic rewards are stronger than extrinsic rewards; people work harder and are more innovative when money is completely off the table. So, I'm just biding my time for the moment of our economic collapse and then help build up a society based on volunteerism.
    But money was always just a method of value transfer designed to be simpler than the barter system. It's easier to carry a pouch of coins than to tromp around with two chickens, a bag of potatoes, and three handmade chairs hoping to trade for things you do need.

    Now even if we went to a "work credit" system of electronic values, which appears to be what Big Business is aiming for, how do you deal with individuals amassing that kind of wealth anyway. I also dispute the idea that police, EMT's, medical personnel, etc. would be willing to volunteer merely for the sake of doing so. People who put themselves out there at greater risk or using special skills usually want something more than a thank you in return. Can't live on thank you's.

    Perhaps I am misunderstanding your proposal though.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  2. #32
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    I feel that almost all problems with the government stem from special interest groups, corruption/bribery, and economy games. I'm for a project venus type solution. Not just America, but the entire world economy needs to have a complete reboot. Money just doesn't mean anything, it's printed on demand. Even the gold standard only worked because it was scarce, but that can be attacked in the same way that De Beers cornered the diamond market. Ultimately, the economy needs to be automated and socialized. That is a BIG issue between me and most libertarians; where they think a free market is the path to liberty, history has shown it to always be the path to slavery. All previous forms of communism and full socialism have failed due to the way the system was corrupted by the ruling class. If we could all accept a standardized/automated system of wealth distribution and completely separate "working" from obtaining wealth, all work would be voluntary. There is a level of automation where all distribution and utility architecture could be maintained by volunteers. For those that don't believe a society can run on volunteers, ask yourself why police do their job? Do you really think they do it for the money? There are people who WANT to help society, like activist groups. If we ran the government through volunteers and completely removed the ability to gain wealth or power, all the problems of our modern government/economy would be solved; there'd be no more special interest groups, no more corruption, no more ability to influence wealth distribution. It's been known for a long time now that intrinsic rewards are stronger than extrinsic rewards; people work harder and are more innovative when money is completely off the table. So, I'm just biding my time for the moment of our economic collapse and then help build up a society based on volunteerism.

    Bud, you're welcome to try that if you want; however, count me out.

    Reasons: Several classical errors in your hypothesis:

    1. Previous failures of socialist/communists state were because They Weren't Doing It Right, but We Can If We Try Again. This is an old argument. The problems with fully and completely socialist/communists setups like you're advocating are that they fail to take into account human nature, which leads me to my second point...
    2. You're removing the primary incentive to work; namely, to gain from the fruits of your labors. The original Jamestown settlers tried that, and they found that absent this incentive most people did only the minimum required to avoid getting in trouble. The USSR had the same problems, to quote one factory worker "they pretend they pay us, and we pretend we work". Systems like this tend to have very low productivity, which means less prosperity for all.
    3. Another human nature problem: power hungry leaders. This was one of the USSR's fatal flaws... give any governmental system that much power and someone will abuse it for their own benefit.

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  3. #33
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Light View Post
    The root of all our problems right now is neoliberalism and a privatized financial system.

    As it stands, the largesse of private business is overtaking our government and all of the public assets we hold dear. Our nation's infrastructure is falling apart, we have upwards of 15% realistic unemployment (perhaps more), and more than 25% of the population is having to turn to the government tit. All the while, the private sector continues to rake in obscene profits that are not being redistributed through trickle down.

    De-privatize the Federal Reserve and give the power of the financial system back to the People, and our government may be able to restore its democratic functions.

    That said, IMO it is far too late. The wealthy are currently building their fortresses and deepening their moats because the writing's on the wall for what's about to happen. With our global empire being artificially kept afloat with fiat money, the government is functioning in name only. Realistically, our economy collapsed in 2008. People should be under no illusions about long term solvency. The ship is being kept afloat so that those with the means can build their shelters. The rest of us are SOL, mostly because Americans are too stupid to have spent the past 15 years doing anything but engaging in pointless partisan bickering. We have been fighting each other instead of our government.
    Privatized financial system? Are you joking? The financial sector of the United States economy is the least free market of any other sector. It is founded upon fraudulent fractional reserve banking and subsidized the by the Federal Reserve, a government created bank that epitomizes corporatism.

    The Federal Reserve has monopoly on the creation of money, manipulates interest rates, and can create money to give to its friends. The chairman of the Federal Reserve is appointed by the President, so to call it private is nonsense. Is is independent of Congressional oversight? Sure. But it is not arm of the free market.

    The Fed needs to be gotten rid of, and banking needs a huge overhaul.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
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  4. #34
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    I feel that almost all problems with the government stem from special interest groups, corruption/bribery, and economy games. I'm for a project venus type solution. Not just America, but the entire world economy needs to have a complete reboot. Money just doesn't mean anything, it's printed on demand. Even the gold standard only worked because it was scarce, but that can be attacked in the same way that De Beers cornered the diamond market. Ultimately, the economy needs to be automated and socialized. That is a BIG issue between me and most libertarians; where they think a free market is the path to liberty, history has shown it to always be the path to slavery. All previous forms of communism and full socialism have failed due to the way the system was corrupted by the ruling class. If we could all accept a standardized/automated system of wealth distribution and completely separate "working" from obtaining wealth, all work would be voluntary. There is a level of automation where all distribution and utility architecture could be maintained by volunteers. For those that don't believe a society can run on volunteers, ask yourself why police do their job? Do you really think they do it for the money? There are people who WANT to help society, like activist groups. If we ran the government through volunteers and completely removed the ability to gain wealth or power, all the problems of our modern government/economy would be solved; there'd be no more special interest groups, no more corruption, no more ability to influence wealth distribution. It's been known for a long time now that intrinsic rewards are stronger than extrinsic rewards; people work harder and are more innovative when money is completely off the table. So, I'm just biding my time for the moment of our economic collapse and then help build up a society based on volunteerism.
    No, the biggest problem with our current form of unrestricted representative democracy is a large, perhaps even majority, of the people have learned that they can vote themselves benefits and money from the taxes while passing those taxes onto others. What you mention is a problem, but not nearly as big as the self entitlement vote.

    As to your whole socialism thing. Yeah, right, we all will transform into Mother Theresa overnight and never ever do anything selfish again. Good luck with that. If you haven't noticed, we have a large number of Americans who chose not to work at all because they can live off the government and still have a level of wealth and standard of living greater than the majority of middle classes in most other countries. And that number is only as small as it is because in the 90's welfare reform was passed, otherwise we would be seeing even more of them.

    No. Democracy needs to be limited to those who have shown to care and are willing to place the welfare of society above their own. A period of service in a way that is selfless and places the person in service at great risk with little to no chance of self profit. I.E. Military service, police and Firemen.

    Only those who have done such service for a specified amount of time should be allowed to vote or hold political office. Further, any seeking to hold a political office should be required to complete a professional training course and serve through a series of apprenticeship posts.

    The economy needs to be removed from government interference except to enforce rules of fair competition and minimum safety (a few others, but not spelling it all out here). The government should pass no law protecting existing business or any law that hinders the rise of competition.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  5. #35
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    ...No. Democracy needs to be limited to those who have shown to care and are willing to place the welfare of society above their own. A period of service in a way that is selfless and places the person in service at great risk with little to no chance of self profit. I.E. Military service, police and Firemen.

    Only those who have done such service for a specified amount of time should be allowed to vote or hold political office. Further, any seeking to hold a political office should be required to complete a professional training course and serve through a series of apprenticeship posts.

    The economy needs to be removed from government interference except to enforce rules of fair competition and minimum safety (a few others, but not spelling it all out here). The government should pass no law protecting existing business or any law that hinders the rise of competition.
    Methinks you are a fan of Robert Heinlein's "Starship Troopers."
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  6. #36
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Actually, most people at the time did. It was mostly among wealthy bankers, landowners, and few factory owners who were disgusted with interstate currency issues and conflicting commerce laws that were the primary support of a stronger centralized government. Fancy writing by Madison, Hamilton and John Jay, united in the cause, overcame opponents who were against it for various disparate reasons. Thankfully, those anti-federalists were still strong enough to force Madison to agree to a Bill of Rights.

    Sometimes I wish he would have stubbornly opposed them so that New York, Massachusetts, Virginia and other states would have refused to ratify the Constitution.
    No, I'm saying most people NOW don't want a very weak limited federal government.
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  7. #37
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    No, I'm saying most people NOW don't want a very weak limited federal government.
    Gotcha, My misunderstanding.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  8. #38
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    No, the biggest problem with our current form of unrestricted representative democracy is a large, perhaps even majority, of the people have learned that they can vote themselves benefits and money from the taxes while passing those taxes onto others. What you mention is a problem, but not nearly as big as the self entitlement vote.

    As to your whole socialism thing. Yeah, right, we all will transform into Mother Theresa overnight and never ever do anything selfish again. Good luck with that. If you haven't noticed, we have a large number of Americans who chose not to work at all because they can live off the government and still have a level of wealth and standard of living greater than the majority of middle classes in most other countries. And that number is only as small as it is because in the 90's welfare reform was passed, otherwise we would be seeing even more of them.

    No. Democracy needs to be limited to those who have shown to care and are willing to place the welfare of society above their own. A period of service in a way that is selfless and places the person in service at great risk with little to no chance of self profit. I.E. Military service, police and Firemen.

    Only those who have done such service for a specified amount of time should be allowed to vote or hold political office. Further, any seeking to hold a political office should be required to complete a professional training course and serve through a series of apprenticeship posts.

    The economy needs to be removed from government interference except to enforce rules of fair competition and minimum safety (a few others, but not spelling it all out here). The government should pass no law protecting existing business or any law that hinders the rise of competition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Methinks you are a fan of Robert Heinlein's "Starship Troopers."
    I'm not so naive that I don't think people will be lazy sacks of crap if they could afford it. I understand the power of an extrinsic incentive to get people to do the jobs that need to get done. My problem is with how automation isn't used to replace work, it's used to replace workers. If automation continues at it's current rate, we will eventually have to just "create" jobs for the sole purpose of having consumers to buy what the machines make. All previous forms of communism/socialism have failed because they still had a leader class that decided how the wealth was distributed (and funny enough, they distributed it to themselves). My proposal, essentially the Project Venus proposal, implies that we give all the powers of wealth distribution to a computer network. The main points of failure are limited to having people fulfill the necessary roles of government and public workers. It's true that there does need to be some form of incentive, just due to human nature, but this incentive doesn't necessarily have to be wealth. I've always admired the "starship troopers" solution, of democracy and other "freedoms" for those who serve these social roles. The main issue is to stop rewarding automation as a path to personal wealth, but not deter it as a path to universal prosperity.

    I agreed with almost everything that DVSentinel said except a little on the last part; capitalistic business WILL continue after a shift towards socialist utopianism, since capitalism stems from basic human behavior and economic theory. The issue I have is with how this competition has always benefited the companies more than the consumers, and this competition is inherent to obtaining wealth. That kind of competition would have no meaning after a utopian shift, except for the same way that we find it on internet forums. To the best of my knowledge, nobody is being paid to post here, and yet we still have a mild competition to give better arguments, facts, proposals, etc. Personal industry would be limited to intellectual, artistic, and athletic ventures, and would be almost universally unpaid. I still believe that there will be human advances of every kind that stem from unpaid or grant based ventures, and that it will progress at a similar or even faster rate to what we have now.

    I still acknowledge that the vast, VAST majority of people will just stop doing anything, so there are legitimate flaws. But, the people that will do NOTHING are the same people who are just coasting through life right now; it's not like society is depending on them right now, anyway. The ultimate hope is that everyone will have the chance to figure life out, be productive or consumptive at their leisure, and promote a peaceful advance of humanity. As a libertarian, I acknowledge that nobodies liberties are completely absolute, but I feel that modern capitalism is an infringement on our liberties; no force, physical or social, should be used to make people waste their lives needlessly on jobs that not only don't benefit them, but don't benefit society. (I'm talking about you McDonalds)

  9. #39
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    I'm the only one who says it is mostly working properly. Many of the so-called problems are not necessarily problems, but are expected and acceptable. Others which are problems are problems can't be easily fixed, but there isn't much reason to complain about the whole system unnecessarily.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    My proposal, essentially the Project Venus proposal, implies that we give all the powers of wealth distribution to a computer network.
    You're going to need an IT guy for that. Allow me to just call that job right now.

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