View Poll Results: Why do you still support our system of government?

Voters
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  • Iím one of the 15% - 20% who think it is working properly.

    3 6.82%
  • Iím one of the 15% - 20% but think any problems can easily be fixed.

    2 4.55%
  • Iím among the 15% - 20% but think itís not the system itís the party running it.

    1 2.27%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but think itís not the system but the people running it.

    17 38.64%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but donít think there is anything we can do about it.

    3 6.82%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but donít think thereís enough support to reinvent it.

    7 15.91%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% and am willing to act, just waiting for the right time.

    8 18.18%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but just donít give a crap.

    0 0%
  • Iím not American, and not that concernd about your mess.

    3 6.82%
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Thread: Why do you still support our system of government?

  1. #21
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    If that didn't work the first time around, why would it work a second time? Face the facts, most people don't want the very weak, limited federal government which was originally outlined in the constitution.
    Actually, most people at the time did. It was mostly among wealthy bankers, landowners, and few factory owners who were disgusted with interstate currency issues and conflicting commerce laws that were the primary support of a stronger centralized government. Fancy writing by Madison, Hamilton and John Jay, united in the cause, overcame opponents who were against it for various disparate reasons. Thankfully, those anti-federalists were still strong enough to force Madison to agree to a Bill of Rights.

    Sometimes I wish he would have stubbornly opposed them so that New York, Massachusetts, Virginia and other states would have refused to ratify the Constitution.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  2. #22
    Sage

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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Gotcha. Well, sorry, I thought I covered all the "I Don't" types I could think of. I never thought of simply "I Don't...(no specified reason)" as being a category. I thought trying to change it (even by revolutionary means) was covered.
    That would of course depend upon your definition of "revolutionary". If you mean teaming up with allies and making a direct military assault, nope, don't see that as a viable method. Oh, selecting and getting allies are important, especially ones that can follow a longterm plan. But you have to make economic, social and other assaults to prepare for change, long before you attempt to actually institute that change.

    For example, using a media like this to discover whom might be amenable to my ideas. Also using it to set the stage and provide tools/methods of thinking to dehumanize the enemy. Few, if any, of my comments about the left are in anyway directed to the left, they are simply a tool to set mine and any potential allies minds to the concept that the left, while human in appearance, are not really human.
    Only a fool measures equality by results and not opportunities.

  3. #23
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I agree. But the problem I see is that waiting for the "crash" would probably end us up in a worse place. I think our nation is too large and diverse, we can't seem to get a real consensus on anything. The only ones who seem to agree are major Financial interests, and they all agree what turns a profit for them is the only important thing. "Greed is Good!" ala Ayn Rand.

    I would prefer a peaceful separation into regions and/or individual states with Federal ties for defense and commerce only. I admit I am not sure how well that would work but it would certainly allow each of us as part of a smaller whole to feel we have greater input in the workings.

    Actually I've often thought that may, in the long run, be the only thing that could allow us to survive as a nation without some sort of civil war or other catastrophe. Such an enormous divide exists between various political persuasions and interest groups (not just left/right) that FORCING us ALL to live under the exact same system and laws seems needlessly authoritarian... and unlikely to work in the long run.

    The only thing that makes life under our system tolerable IMO is the degree to which Federalism (in the sense of the States being separate gov'ts with their own laws, to a degree) is still active; while my home state has its problems, it is almost libertarian compared to Massachusetts or NY, whose governmental onus I would be most loathe to suffer under.

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  4. #24
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    one arbitrary way is just as good as another/ CA should not be able to dictate policy to the south and the south shouldn't dictate policy to CA.
    You misunderstood. I wondered how you thought adding another layer of government would help. I did not say it was or was not a good idea. I wanted you to elaborate.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  5. #25
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Actually, most people at the time did. It was mostly among wealthy bankers, landowners, and few factory owners who were disgusted with interstate currency issues and conflicting commerce laws that were the primary support of a stronger centralized government. Fancy writing by Madison, Hamilton and John Jay, united in the cause, overcame opponents who were against it for various disparate reasons. Thankfully, those anti-federalists were still strong enough to force Madison to agree to a Bill of Rights.

    Sometimes I wish he would have stubbornly opposed them so that New York, Massachusetts, Virginia and other states would have refused to ratify the Constitution.

    Methinks you've read I Smell A Rat.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  6. #26
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    That would of course depend upon your definition of "revolutionary". If you mean teaming up with allies and making a direct military assault, nope, don't see that as a viable method. Oh, selecting and getting allies are important, especially ones that can follow a longterm plan. But you have to make economic, social and other assaults to prepare for change, long before you attempt to actually institute that change.

    For example, using a media like this to discover whom might be amenable to my ideas. Also using it to set the stage and provide tools/methods of thinking to dehumanize the enemy. Few, if any, of my comments about the left are in anyway directed to the left, they are simply a tool to set mine and any potential allies minds to the concept that the left, while human in appearance, are not really human.
    I understand. I thought that one of the three options I listed might have covered exactly this idea. Still, I guess it may not be as clear as I thought.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  7. #27
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Methinks you've read I Smell A Rat.
    Oh My! Did you recognize my profile pic???

    I am undone!! LOL
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  8. #28
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    You misunderstood. I wondered how you thought adding another layer of government would help. I did not say it was or was not a good idea. I wanted you to elaborate.
    Because that added layer of government would have the regional equivalence to the fed and the fed would be narrowly restricted to very few specific things and its powers would be narrowly tailored and the Courts would be obligated to construe them that way per my imaginary new arrangement. Then say the Regional government of the south could decide the appropriate tax and expenditures as it relates just to their region and the northeast could do it for themselves, and so on. So if the south wants more roads, they pay for them and get them and if the northeast wants to build a bunch or processing centers to filter their storm water run off they could do that. If the South did not want gay marriage, so be it. If the northeast wants to legalize lesbian pologamy, so be it. In short, the regional government would be more responsive to the states in their region than the federal government currently is.

  9. #29
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Because that added layer of government would have the regional equivalence to the fed and the fed would be narrowly restricted to very few specific things and its powers would be narrowly tailored and the Courts would be obligated to construe them that way per my imaginary new arrangement. Then say the Regional government of the south could decide the appropriate tax and expenditures as it relates just to their region and the northeast could do it for themselves, and so on. So if the south wants more roads, they pay for them and get them and if the northeast wants to build a bunch or processing centers to filter their storm water run off they could do that. If the South did not want gay marriage, so be it. If the northeast wants to legalize lesbian pologamy, so be it. In short, the regional government would be more responsive to the states in their region than the federal government currently is.
    Would you still require each region to adhere to a standard "Bill of Rights" so that no "American" would fear to lose his "civil liberties" simply by crossing an inter-region border?
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  10. #30
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    I feel that almost all problems with the government stem from special interest groups, corruption/bribery, and economy games. I'm for a project venus type solution. Not just America, but the entire world economy needs to have a complete reboot. Money just doesn't mean anything, it's printed on demand. Even the gold standard only worked because it was scarce, but that can be attacked in the same way that De Beers cornered the diamond market. Ultimately, the economy needs to be automated and socialized. That is a BIG issue between me and most libertarians; where they think a free market is the path to liberty, history has shown it to always be the path to slavery. All previous forms of communism and full socialism have failed due to the way the system was corrupted by the ruling class. If we could all accept a standardized/automated system of wealth distribution and completely separate "working" from obtaining wealth, all work would be voluntary. There is a level of automation where all distribution and utility architecture could be maintained by volunteers. For those that don't believe a society can run on volunteers, ask yourself why police do their job? Do you really think they do it for the money? There are people who WANT to help society, like activist groups. If we ran the government through volunteers and completely removed the ability to gain wealth or power, all the problems of our modern government/economy would be solved; there'd be no more special interest groups, no more corruption, no more ability to influence wealth distribution. It's been known for a long time now that intrinsic rewards are stronger than extrinsic rewards; people work harder and are more innovative when money is completely off the table. So, I'm just biding my time for the moment of our economic collapse and then help build up a society based on volunteerism.

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