View Poll Results: Why do you still support our system of government?

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44. You may not vote on this poll
  • Iím one of the 15% - 20% who think it is working properly.

    3 6.82%
  • Iím one of the 15% - 20% but think any problems can easily be fixed.

    2 4.55%
  • Iím among the 15% - 20% but think itís not the system itís the party running it.

    1 2.27%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but think itís not the system but the people running it.

    17 38.64%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but donít think there is anything we can do about it.

    3 6.82%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but donít think thereís enough support to reinvent it.

    7 15.91%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% and am willing to act, just waiting for the right time.

    8 18.18%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but just donít give a crap.

    0 0%
  • Iím not American, and not that concernd about your mess.

    3 6.82%
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Thread: Why do you still support our system of government?

  1. #141
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    If your mischaracterization of Rand is anything like your characterization of government, I'd agree that your beliefs are primarily faith-based (not reasonable).
    Rand was about individual freedom, not greed. Remember, because surely you are writing from an informed position, that she was differentiating it morally from the "altruistic" liberals who claimed that they could violate individual rights, because they insisted to be doing it for the greater good. In contrast, she demonstrates that protecting individual liberties (she uses the word selfish primarily), is the most common good. Rand opposed corporations using government for the greater good (banks) as much as anything else.

    You do understand that your OP is faith-based by your own admission, and you likely don't actually have a really good understanding of what our public officials elected or otherwise are actually doing at their daily jobs? Please admit that realistically you can't really know that. That, is why it's an issue. Not that they are behaving like any other cross section of our population, that's not the issue, and you're wrong to go down that path. It's that they have significant authority over you. If they had zero power over you other than a 5% tax, would it really matter how awful you thought they were? Would it matter more if they charged you nearly 50% of all your earnings?
    Hmmm, I must admit that this was a very convoluted comment. I am going to have to sift through it to see which questions exist and how to provide an answer (if any actually require one). This response is just a place holder so you'll know I am not ignoring it.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  2. #142
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Hmmm, I must admit that this was a very convoluted comment. I am going to have to sift through it to see which questions exist and how to provide an answer (if any actually require one). This response is just a place holder so you'll know I am not ignoring it.
    Convoluted? I sympathize. I'll summarize.

    1. You mischaracterized Rand, it's individual Liberty, not Greed.
    2. How well do you *really* know what the lives and work of these public officials is really like in the day to day? If you don't have such evidence, it seems inappropriate to base you beliefs on slamming them as human beings as the OP clearly does.
    3. The issues I have with government, in contrast, are not about by imagined belief of their behavior or motives like you profess. It's about the system and it's authority over me. An argument that is clearly evidenced, at the very least by my input on voting, and my income leaving in mass quantity via taxation. I offer this example because I'm telling you in #2 that your opposing is inappropriate, and I'm informing you of my understanding of what a more appropriate opposition would look like, that doesn't suffer from the same fallacy (might have other fallacies though :!)

  3. #143
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Convoluted? I sympathize. I'll summarize.

    1. You mischaracterized Rand, it's individual Liberty, not Greed.
    2. How well do you *really* know what the lives and work of these public officials is really like in the day to day? If you don't have such evidence, it seems inappropriate to base you beliefs on slamming them as human beings as the OP clearly does.
    3. The issues I have with government, in contrast, are not about by imagined belief of their behavior or motives like you profess. It's about the system and it's authority over me. An argument that is clearly evidenced, at the very least by my input on voting, and my income leaving in mass quantity via taxation. I offer this example because I'm telling you in #2 that your opposing is inappropriate, and I'm informing you of my understanding of what a more appropriate opposition would look like, that doesn't suffer from the same fallacy (might have other fallacies though :!)
    (Sigh) That was really unnecessary and rather juvenile in my opinion. I have other things on my plate, and wanted to take some time to analyze your comment and then provide an appropriate response if I felt one was necessary. I did not want to provide a knee-jerk reply, but rather a thoughtful one. Being sarcastically disrespectful is no way to garner either respect or a response.

    When I have thought things through, and perhaps concluded some research, I will reply. Thanks.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  4. #144
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    Then what is more human? Is it less influenced? Growing up with no influences?
    Man is a predatory mammal, and with its standing in the world, an apex predator. To strive for dominance is human. To form a strong bond with others like us, while isolating the rest is human. To kill is human. We in the "civilized world are not human, we're domesticated cattle.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

  5. #145
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    I agree with the system of government our Founding Fathers laid out for us, however it is not functioning the way it is supposed to. You see, for a system to work...people need to follow the system to some extent. True, the Constitution was meant to be a timeless document that could not be abridged...however the moment over 75% of the U.S Government becomes corrupted, is the moment that the system begins to fail.

    How can we fix it? By once again following the document our Founding Fathers laid out for us. I won't disregard the fact that we are living in a dangerous time, with terrorists and whatnot(our fault, but that is for a different forum). However I think a famous quote by Benjamin Franklin sums it up quite nicely:

    "Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for safety, deserve neither."

    The world is not a safe place, I understand that better then most people. However, sacrificing our rights is only going to make that worse. What happens when you are cornered in an alleyway by a criminal? eans to defend yourself?

    So long story short...I support the system, but not the people running it. If we actually start following the system we are supposed to be following, I think the United States has the potential to become a really special country once again.

  6. #146
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    These people are not monarchs. They have no authority to initiate aggression as does a monarch.
    Under Hoppe's system they certainly do have the authority to remove people because it is their land.

    The Amish remove people from their society. It's called shunning. Are the Amish monarchs?
    I don't think Hobbes is talking about shunning when he refers to 'forcibly removing' anyone who doesn't abide by his elitist standards.

    He claims that, from the point of view of respect for property rights, democracies are inferior to monarchies.
    So as long as the land is the 'private property' of the landlord then feudalism is 'libertarian'? I disagree with this notion.

    However, favors a libertarian society over either one.
    There is nothing libertarian about a select group of elitists having the power to physically remove people who don't agree with their views.

    He doesn't want anyone's land taken from them. That would be a violation of property rights.
    He wants the land to be 'homesteaded' which has very broad meaning when it comes to Austrians. To many Austrians that simply means stepping onto a piece of unclaimed land and declaring that everything he/she can see to the horizon is now theirs, which is imo a ludicrous way to look at property rights.

    Also, a monarch controls society via the initiation of aggression. Hoppe does not advocate that sort of control.
    As you saw in his quotes about removing people from society he clearly does advocate aggression (though he may not admit it).
    Last edited by Geoist; 07-17-13 at 01:49 AM.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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  7. #147
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    People seem to have a lot of faith in Polls and Statistics. Recently, several polls have indicated somewhere between 15% and 20% of the American people still have faith in the workings of our government. If so, why do you think we still support it?

    I have almost no faith in the workings of our Federal government, and what little there is resides solely within the Federal Court system which seems to be, despite claims otherwise, the last bulwark protecting our individual liberties.

    Both houses of Congress are simply whores for banking and corporate interests, and give lip service to the needs of citizens.

    The Chief Executive and his cabinet are puppets, acting out roles to make themselves seem important. The upper-level management of the various agencies under their control are cronies and political hacks of whichever party got them appointed, and work to undermine whichever opposing party holds the executive office. Lower management are simply drones, doing as little as possible in order to keep their positions and move up the civil service ladder.

    Only the Judicial branch allows some action independent of special interests. Not in all cases of course, political appointments have some sway, but in the main each Judge is trying to balance the scales of justice honestly.

    The moment I lose faith in this last small group is the moment I become fully radicalized.

    Until then, Iím still willing to work within the system and hope for the best.
    So which option did you pick from the poll?

    I didn't know which one to pick. I agree with what you are saying. My position is that the system is corrupt, ridiculously and unnecessarily slow moving and outdated in that sense, it is riddled with problems, it needs revamping etc. With all this said... if there are enough people that feel the same way... lets start renovating. We could start by addressing one issue at a time. There are enough intelligent people on this site, I bet we could do a pretty good job. But how would it get pushed through? This site needs some serious connections with politicians who aren't corrupt, aye? The government should pay us if we come up with plausible solutions. I like the sounds of that, lol! Half joking/half serious

  8. #148
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by MusicAdventurer View Post
    So which option did you pick from the poll?

    I didn't know which one to pick. I agree with what you are saying. My position is that the system is corrupt, ridiculously and unnecessarily slow moving and outdated in that sense, it is riddled with problems, it needs revamping etc. With all this said... if there are enough people that feel the same way... lets start renovating. We could start by addressing one issue at a time. There are enough intelligent people on this site, I bet we could do a pretty good job. But how would it get pushed through? This site needs some serious connections with politicians who aren't corrupt, aye? The government should pay us if we come up with plausible solutions. I like the sounds of that, lol! Half joking/half serious
    If I recall correctly I believe I picked "I’m among the 80% - 85% but think it’s not the system but the people running it."

    I believe I picked it because I still think that the basic system of tri-partite republicanism could be effective if it hadn't been blown up into this colossus of a bureaucratic mess.

    Allowing Congress to stretch the Commerce Clause out of all proportion to reality in order to regulate our lives to such an extent was the biggest mistake. Allowing the President to use military forces without a clear declaration of war is another. The list goes on.

    When I was very young I used to be an activist. I worked for civil rights, including the rights of 18 year-olds to vote and be given full adult status. After all “They” were sending “US” to war and we had no say in the matter. I was actually so proud of our efforts I joined the Army voluntarily.

    Now I don’t see that level of public interest, even after several past and ongoing wars reminiscent of Vietnam. That’s one of the reasons I posted this thread. I want to see what people think is preventing us from corrective action when our government continues to function this way.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 07-17-13 at 02:19 AM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  9. #149
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    If I recall correctly I believe I picked "I’m among the 80% - 85% but think it’s not the system but the people running it."

    I believe I picked it because I still think that the basic system of tri-partite republicanism could be effective if it hadn't been blown up into this colossus of a bureaucratic mess.

    Allowing Congress to stretch the Commerce Clause out of all proportion to reality in order to regulate our lives to such an extent was the biggest mistake. Allowing the President to use military forces without a clear declaration of war is another. The list goes on.

    When I was very young I used to be an activist. I worked for civil rights, including the rights of 18 year-olds to vote and be given full adult status. After all “They” were sending “US” to war and we had no say in the matter. I was actually so proud of our efforts I joined the Army voluntarily.

    Now I don’t see that level of public interest, even after several past and ongoing wars reminiscent of Vietnam. That’s one of the reasons I posted this thread. I want to see what people think is preventing us from corrective action when our government continues to function this way.
    I think I am somewhere in the following categories:

    I’m among the 80% - 85% but don’t think there is anything we can do about it.
    I’m among the 80% - 85% but don’t think there’s enough support to reinvent it.
    I’m among the 80% - 85% and am willing to act, just waiting for the right time.

    I would add the following categories that I would be in as well:

    I’m among the 80% - 85% and am willing to act, but do not know where to start and how I can help.
    I’m among the 80% - 85% and am willing to act, but need to be very frugal with my time due to the many responsibilities I have.


    This is one reason I wish these political conversations could be put to good use - it doesn't take too much effort to argue/problem solve at the end of the day in a forum

  10. #150
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    UI don't think Hobbes is talking about shunning when he refers to 'forcibly removing' anyone who doesn't abide by his elitist standards.
    Whoops, I said Hobbes when I meant Hoppe.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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