View Poll Results: Why do you still support our system of government?

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  • Iím one of the 15% - 20% who think it is working properly.

    3 6.82%
  • Iím one of the 15% - 20% but think any problems can easily be fixed.

    2 4.55%
  • Iím among the 15% - 20% but think itís not the system itís the party running it.

    1 2.27%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but think itís not the system but the people running it.

    17 38.64%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but donít think there is anything we can do about it.

    3 6.82%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but donít think thereís enough support to reinvent it.

    7 15.91%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% and am willing to act, just waiting for the right time.

    8 18.18%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but just donít give a crap.

    0 0%
  • Iím not American, and not that concernd about your mess.

    3 6.82%
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Thread: Why do you still support our system of government?

  1. #131
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Houses typically sit upon a piece of land.Every person who owns a piece of land is not a monarch.
    Of course not everyone who 'owns' the land his/her house sits upon is a monarch. But that is not the issue I have with Hoppe. He advocates for a select elite to control territories and shape society to their elitist vision. See the following quote:

    "In every society, a few individuals acquire the status of an elite through talent. Due to superior achievements of wealth, wisdom, and bravery, these individuals come to possess natural authority, and their opinions and judgments enjoy wide-spread respect. Moreover, because of selective mating, marriage, and the laws of civil and genetic inheritance, positions of natural authority are likely to be passed on within a few noble families. It is to the heads of these families with long-established records of superior achievement, farsightedness, and exemplary personal conduct that men turn with their conflicts and complaints against each other." ~ Hans Hermann Hoppe

    Of course, Hoppe ignores the fact that this has essentially already happened when we transitioned from hunter-gatherer societies to States. But hey, as long as they're "private" states its all good and 'libertarian!'

    Also, anyone who disagrees would be "physically removed" whatever that means:

    "There can be no tolerance toward democrats ... in a libertarian social order. They will have to be physically separated and removed from society." ~ Hoppe

    "There can be no tolerance toward those habitually promoting lifestyles incompatible with this goal. They-the advocates of alternative, non-family-centered lifestyles such as, for instance, individual hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism-will have to be physically removed from society, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order." ~ Hoppe

    Again, I think you're making up definitions, and then using your made up definition to claim that Hoppe favors monarchy. He doesn't.
    He certainly favors it over democracies/republics:

    He proposes a government that legally protects people and the goods they own from invasion by others. That is not a monarchy.
    He wants a select few elites to appropriate the land, control societies, and pass on authority to their descendents. How is that not monarchy?
    Last edited by Geoist; 07-15-13 at 01:15 AM.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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  2. #132
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    If the Constitution was actually followed we wouldn't be in this predicament.

  3. #133
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morrigi View Post
    If the Constitution was actually followed we wouldn't be in this predicament.
    Unfortunately, it is the nature of man to acquire more power, despite what a piece of paper may say (with all due respect to the US Constitution). Personally, I think it would be best to scrap everything and decentralize government to the local communities.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  4. #134
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Of course not everyone who 'owns' the land his/her house sits upon is a monarch. But that is not the issue I have with Hoppe. He advocates for a select elite to control territories and shape society to their elitist vision. See the following quote:

    "In every society, a few individuals acquire the status of an elite through talent. Due to superior achievements of wealth, wisdom, and bravery, these individuals come to possess natural authority, and their opinions and judgments enjoy wide-spread respect. Moreover, because of selective mating, marriage, and the laws of civil and genetic inheritance, positions of natural authority are likely to be passed on within a few noble families. It is to the heads of these families with long-established records of superior achievement, farsightedness, and exemplary personal conduct that men turn with their conflicts and complaints against each other." ~ Hans Hermann Hoppe
    These people are not monarchs. They have no authority to initiate aggression as does a monarch.


    Of course, Hoppe ignores the fact that this has essentially already happened when we transitioned from hunter-gatherer societies to States. But hey, as long as they're "private" states its all good and 'libertarian!'

    Also, anyone who disagrees would be "physically removed" whatever that means:

    "There can be no tolerance toward democrats ... in a libertarian social order. They will have to be physically separated and removed from society." ~ Hoppe

    "There can be no tolerance toward those habitually promoting lifestyles incompatible with this goal. They-the advocates of alternative, non-family-centered lifestyles such as, for instance, individual hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism-will have to be physically removed from society, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order." ~ Hoppe
    The Amish remove people from their society. It's called shunning. Are the Amish monarchs?

    He certainly favors it over democracies/republics:
    He claims that, from the point of view of respect for property rights, democracies are inferior to monarchies. However, favors a libertarian society over either one.

    He wants a select few elites to appropriate the land, control societies, and pass on authority to their descendents. How is that not monarchy?
    He doesn't want anyone's land taken from them. That would be a violation of property rights.

    Also, a monarch controls society via the initiation of aggression. Hoppe does not advocate that sort of control.

  5. #135
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    He certainly favors it over democracies/republics:
    off topic

    I know it wasn't his (or your) intent but that's one of the best explanations I've heard for abolishing corporations as opposed to owner/operators and partnerships. It's what I consider the main problem with our current economy, the replacement of CEOs from people who have a real stake in the game and are in it for the long term to people who are only looking for short-term profit.

    /off topic
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  6. #136
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Don't know. What do you think?

    I just think partisan influence on SC judges should be minimized.
    In a sense I believe that we already have most of what your suggestion is. We use the word 'appointed' for when the President picks a SC judge, but it's really closer to a nomination in practical application. We don't require a super-majority for conformation, but the overall Senate does vote on it.

    I understand and agree with the desire to eliminate politics as much as possible from the process, but I don't think there is a better way. We could maybe do some minor tweaks to the current system, but I would not advocate a complete overhaul. I would not want a non-political body choosing, nor would I go with something like a seniority system where the next one in line is presented.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  7. #137
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Unfortunately, it is the nature of man to acquire more power, despite what a piece of paper may say (with all due respect to the US Constitution). Personally, I think it would be best to scrap everything and decentralize government to the local communities.
    To the first comment, the Constitution was intended and hoped to be upheld by violence every once in awhile to keep the government in check. When the people lose the spine to do so, the laws of the land as written in our Constitution become invalid. Liberty must be upheld and defended by by blood if necessary. Our forefathers were rebels and revolutionaries, so why are we not today? As a people, we have lost what it means to be American.

    That said, I would fully support some hybrid of the current Constitution and the Articles of Confederation. States would still have to follow the U.S. Constitution and this would be upheld by high courts, but Congress and the President would either be nonexistent or serve solely as figureheads like the Queen of England. The military would be changed as well, individual states being in charge of their own forces unless and until they as as majority felt that a national system of command be formed in emergencies, to be disbanded later.

    The problem with the Articles of Confederation is that at the time communication was very slow. This meant that it could take months to assemble a single vote on an important issue even with the Continental Congress. The Articles would worsen this problem, which is one of the main reasons the document was not adopted.

    That said, that communication issue no longer exists. If the States felt that, say, the military needed to be mobilized or that war must be declared, a majority would need to support the action. The only federal powers I feel should be in place would be something similar to the Supreme Court without the conservative and liberal bias, and have only those eligible who have sworn a personal oath to uphold the Constitution even and especially in opposition to partisan politics, as well as swear that they, individually as a whole, had no right to officially interpret the Constitution but merely uphold or deny state or federal actions as the Constitution demands. I'd say that this system should be enacted now, but it has become clear that the current Supreme Court has been overruled and undermined by the rest of the government. Our checks and balances now only exist in secret courts and the checking of individual liberties and balancing of the powers of tyranny into a cohesive system.

    Our system of government has been undermined at the most basic level, and thus it will take nothing less than a complete reformation of said system to enact such changes.

  8. #138
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by OhIsee.Then View Post
    Oh, you're looking for the form of government that causes humans not to behave like humans. I think that may be difficult, but I'll work on it for a few minutes.
    Depends on what you believe human behavior is. Fascism yielded some interesting results. So did East Asian Communism, but to me it made them act more human than what western society allows.
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  9. #139
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I agree. But the problem I see is that waiting for the "crash" would probably end us up in a worse place. I think our nation is too large and diverse, we can't seem to get a real consensus on anything. The only ones who seem to agree are major Financial interests, and they all agree what turns a profit for them is the only important thing. "Greed is Good!" ala Ayn Rand.
    If your mischaracterization of Rand is anything like your characterization of government, I'd agree that your beliefs are primarily faith-based (not reasonable).
    Rand was about individual freedom, not greed. Remember, because surely you are writing from an informed position, that she was differentiating it morally from the "altruistic" liberals who claimed that they could violate individual rights, because they insisted to be doing it for the greater good. In contrast, she demonstrates that protecting individual liberties (she uses the word selfish primarily), is the most common good. Rand opposed corporations using government for the greater good (banks) as much as anything else.

    You do understand that your OP is faith-based by your own admission, and you likely don't actually have a really good understanding of what our public officials elected or otherwise are actually doing at their daily jobs? Please admit that realistically you can't really know that. That, is why it's an issue. Not that they are behaving like any other cross section of our population, that's not the issue, and you're wrong to go down that path. It's that they have significant authority over you. If they had zero power over you other than a 5% tax, would it really matter how awful you thought they were? Would it matter more if they charged you nearly 50% of all your earnings?

  10. #140
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    Depends on what you believe human behavior is. Fascism yielded some interesting results. So did East Asian Communism, but to me it made them act more human than what western society allows.
    Yup, but note I was commenting on what one (he) thought human behavior is. Behavior is the result of many things not just what we would be like if no one ever influenced us, intended or not. Most of our behavior is based on external influences, especially when young. Then what is more human? Is it less influenced? Growing up with no influences?

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