View Poll Results: Why do you still support our system of government?

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  • Iím one of the 15% - 20% who think it is working properly.

    3 6.82%
  • Iím one of the 15% - 20% but think any problems can easily be fixed.

    2 4.55%
  • Iím among the 15% - 20% but think itís not the system itís the party running it.

    1 2.27%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but think itís not the system but the people running it.

    17 38.64%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but donít think there is anything we can do about it.

    3 6.82%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but donít think thereís enough support to reinvent it.

    7 15.91%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% and am willing to act, just waiting for the right time.

    8 18.18%
  • Iím among the 80% - 85% but just donít give a crap.

    0 0%
  • Iím not American, and not that concernd about your mess.

    3 6.82%
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Thread: Why do you still support our system of government?

  1. #111
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Hoppe's ideal form of govt:

    In a covenant founded for the purpose of protecting family and kin, there can be no tolerance toward those habitually promoting life-styles incompatible with this goal. They – the advocates of alternative, non-family and kin-centred lifestyles such as, for instance, individual hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism – will have to be physically removed from society, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order.
    Hans-Hermann Hoppe, Democracy: The God That Failed: The Economics and Politics of Monarchy, Democracy and Natural Order, Transaction Publishers, 2001, pp. 216-218
    This quote does not, as did mine, describe the government suggested by Hoppe nor describe it's Constitution. If you want to know what sort of government Hoppe supports to back and read what I quoted, in which he specifies what the constitution for such a government would look like.

  2. #112
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    But our arguments are based on the same premise; our population is neither informed, nor is it motivated to become and remain informed. Couple this with the fact the main sources of information provide skewed viewpoints, often in support of one side or the other of our current two party system, nothing will change.

    There simply aren't enough people who do try to stay informed to sway the rest by our efforts. I was asking HOW under such circumstances. Your response was by going out and informing. That's why I replied people who try don't have the resources to compete with those in power who do have such resources. They may try but it's like a mouse squeeking in the middle of a thunderstorm.
    The uninformed and the misinformed generally dont do anything. The former couldnt care less, the latter just talks about it. And the few of them that did do something will only do it once. Its the informed that you have to worry about.

  3. #113
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    This quote does not, as did mine, describe the government suggested by Hoppe nor describe it's Constitution. If you want to know what sort of government Hoppe supports to back and read what I quoted, in which he specifies what the constitution for such a government would look like.
    I did read the quote, and to the undiscerning eye it looks quite good. But then you read: Every person, apart from being the sole owner of his physical body, has the right to employ his private property in any way he sees fit so long as in so doing he does not uninvitedly change the physical integrity of another person's body or property.

    This is where my Hoppe quote comes in. One would think the two quotes contradict each other. But as a believer in landed property first and foremost, he sees no problem in the owners of a territory (whether its a covenant, guild, individual, etc) dictating to others living in that territory.

    Do you deny that he believes that a strictly religious territory should have the authority to physically remove those who do not conform?
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  4. #114
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    No political system ever devised has succeeded in changing human nature. That nature involves creating societies of unequal power and influence, motivated by greed, selfishness and the simple desire to control others, and so about all that a political system can ever accomplish is to temper this nature to some degree. I think ours does about as good a job in this regard as any other in theory, what with its system of checks and balances, but the problem lies in the way it is currently practiced and the lack of vigilance in maintaining that temperence.
    Pretty much agree with this, but is it the desire to control others, or a desire to set one self up? In other words, would many of these people truly care what others do as long as they get everything they can for themselves? Or, is the control the means to the end of setting themselves up?

    Completely agree with the lack of vigilance part.
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  5. #115
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    I did read the quote, and to the undiscerning eye it looks quite good. But then you read: Every person, apart from being the sole owner of his physical body, has the right to employ his private property in any way he sees fit so long as in so doing he does not uninvitedly change the physical integrity of another person's body or property.

    This is where my Hoppe quote comes in. One would think the two quotes contradict each other. But as a believer in landed property first and foremost, he sees no problem in the owners of a territory (whether its a covenant, guild, individual, etc) dictating to others living in that territory.

    Do you deny that he believes that a strictly religious territory should have the authority to physically remove those who do not conform?
    No, I don't deny that his position is that a property owner has may exclude whomever he wishes from his property.

    BTW, I don't think the two quotes contradict each other.

  6. #116
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    - SC judges shall no longer be appointed by the respective President, but elected by a two/third majority of House and/or Congress (limiting partisanship of judges; professional expertize should count and respect for what the Constitution actually says)
    Who would nominate them?
    If you claim sexual harassment to be wrong, yet you defend anyone on your side for any reason,
    then you are a hypocrite and everything you say on the matter is just babble.

  7. #117
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    The final downfall of the American system has been predicted before, but here we are still here to predict it again. We survived the Civil War, by any measure a worse time than this. The Great Depression should have brought us down, but we survived. For the moment, large portions of the population have decided that their way is the only way and adherence to that way is more important than the survival of the nation. Of course, if people continue to act on that belief, we are doomed, but I think we just have not come quite close enough to the edge yet. When the average person's life becomes so uncomfortable that he or she is willing to get of his or her complacent ass and demand change, change will come. That will mean the people telling both parties, "We don't care about your sacred beliefs. We expect you to find solutions to our problems, and, if you don't, we'll damned well find someone who will." We will know the day is close when incumbents of both parties are running terrified and promising change and delivering. From social security, to military spending, to health care - you name it, all of our problems are solvable by good-willed people intent on examining facts, giving up posturing, and compromising.

  8. #118
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    No, I don't deny that his position is that a property owner has may exclude whomever he wishes from his property.

    BTW, I don't think the two quotes contradict each other.
    Then you have confirmed: Hoppe believes the best form of govt is monarchy.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  9. #119
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    I disagree. I think the root of our problems is that some people think that their choices should be forcibly imposed on otherwise uninvolved third parties.
    That's always been part of American politics.

    Follow the money and you'll see where all our problems lie.

  10. #120
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    Re: Why do you still support our system of government?

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Then you have confirmed: Hoppe believes the best form of govt is monarchy.
    Every person who owns a house is not a monarch. You are making up definitions.

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