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Thread: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

  1. #41
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Christianity: the ability to do evil, unimaginable harm to everyone you meet ... just as long as you regret it ... eventually.
    As opposed to Muslims doing harm or atheists doing harm--no difference. Has nothing to do with Christianity.
    Hehe. I don't think I've ever heard the counter argument before that since Christianity is superfluous, it's a valid theology. Gold star.

  2. #42
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Yeah, just as I thought, another "Whoops I am wrong so let me play the it's off-topic card to see if I can save some face". What's next, the "Anybody who doesn't agree with me is off-topic" card?

    ...That being an A-hole is a sin in your mind makes it pretty clear I am not the one who is uninformed about Christianity.
    LOL Okay, okay, ONE final response since you don't understand my "literal-minded" comment in reference to your inability to interpret the meaning of the term: "A-hole."

    In the context of this discussion, A-hole clearly means "hateful, intolerant, unforgiving, judgmental, greedy, unkind, cruel, etc. etc. etc.,” in your treatment of others, while maintaining the attitudes of a Pharisee: self-righteous, hypocritical, and sanctimonious.

    All terms used in my original post, and having the effect of defining my use of the word “A-hole” in response to your comment.

    Now I am sorry but any further comments of this nature in this thread from other members will only be met with silence. There is no need for me to say any more in here about this, my position is fairly clear.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 07-05-13 at 03:29 PM.

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    If you can read that passage and NOT see what I stated....you provide another object lesson as to why people are turning away from Christianity in the west.

    There really isn't much more that I can say.
    I'm reading the words on the page, you are reading things into the words on the page that don't actually exist. I think that says a lot.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    None of the answers, I think it is a bit of everything mixed together. The vatican has damaged Roman Christianity like almost nothing else in the history of religion. The protestant church is extremely divided in a lot of small churches ranging from almost liberal to extreme fundamentalist protestantism.

    And then we are not talking about how education and enlightenment have made people aware and wise up to the extremely reactive and backward views of religions.

    Marx has a bit of an issue too, when people who have no hope look to religion for some hope of a better future (even if it is in the afterlife).

    Fact is people have grown away from religion for a whole list of reasons and I doubt they will turn back to religion any time soon. That does not mean that they do not live perfectly wholesome lives but that they do not have a religion thinking for them and deciding how they should vote or how other people should live their lives.
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  5. #45
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    I would argue the complete opposite.

    Post 1970s the west has become MUCH more hedonistic, selfish, egostistical and competative, I think that comes out of neo-liberal capitalism, neo-liberal capitalist celebrates the "self-made-man" myth of the rich, it celebrates hedonism (maximizing personal pleasure), egotism (gotta get mine), competativeness and so on, Christianity at its core, once you get behind the institutionalized church, is an egalitarianism anti-ego faith of self sacrifice and absolute love, that sort of ethic just doesn't give with Capitalism.

    I think Ayn rand was right, capitalism is the anthithesis of christianity.

    That's one thing.

    Another thing is the clear and blatent corruption of the church.

    I don't think it's scienice or anything like that, given that scientific revolutions happened way before secularization, secularization essencially came along with the neo-liberal revolution.
    I would suggest you are thinking too short term

    The Welfare state really did not start to take effect in the west until the 1960s. Certain aspects were around before that I believe in various countries, but the most significant additions I am sure started in the 60s. Religion is something that people tend to adopt from their parents, and potentially drop when they are in their late teens and early 20s. The baby boomers would be the first generation of in NA that would have grown up in a true welfare state, and I expect they have a lower religious participation then their parents, and Gen X even lower then the baby boomers.

    The US has become economically harder for people then 30 years ago, but they still have it better when it comes to welfare, healthcare should a problem arise. They do not have to look for charity from the church as they did 60 years ago, instead they get it from the state. They don't have to go to church to ensure the community will assist them if required.

    I am of course not talking about religion for the hardened capitalists, but more typical people who wish to provide for themselves and family rather then being the selfish capitalist as typified by Ayn Rands writing, which generally typifies a smaller portion of the population
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  6. #46
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Rising general education levels doomed it in the mid 19th century. One of the first acts of the Christians when they first took over our civilization was to close all the pagan schools because people who can think don't think about "Jesus"...................

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    The answer is E) Lack of Resolve.

  8. #48
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    I liked James Turner's thought on the matter. His thesis in Without God, Without Creed was that for a small number of people in America, unbelief was caused through tensions in the theology once the religious themselves adopted "reason" as a means to evaluate belief and its relationship with the known world. Slowly, but surely, one could claim that you needn't have belief to be moral or helpful to mankind. Religious progressives of the mid to late 19th century continued to believe that they could improve the lives of people, but some among them were not convinced of the morality or the truth of the brand of Christianity they had previously subscribed to. Some embraced different forms of Christianity or spirituality, while others started having no belief at all. Having no belief, while retaining the Social Gospel message felt a relief. He was still able to admit that while this development had occurred, those who had subscribed to the Second Great Awakening of Christianity increased dramatically and would continue to influence progressives long afterward.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by 99percenter View Post
    Religion is a form of oppression. People in power want to keep people below them stupid and religion is the easiest way to do that. Religion is also a tool to incite violence. Bad people become hero's because they are doing god's work.
    I never felt oppressed by religion, though I've never been a bug rule follower either.

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  10. #50
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    I would suggest you are thinking too short term

    The Welfare state really did not start to take effect in the west until the 1960s. Certain aspects were around before that I believe in various countries, but the most significant additions I am sure started in the 60s. Religion is something that people tend to adopt from their parents, and potentially drop when they are in their late teens and early 20s. The baby boomers would be the first generation of in NA that would have grown up in a true welfare state, and I expect they have a lower religious participation then their parents, and Gen X even lower then the baby boomers.

    The US has become economically harder for people then 30 years ago, but they still have it better when it comes to welfare, healthcare should a problem arise. They do not have to look for charity from the church as they did 60 years ago, instead they get it from the state. They don't have to go to church to ensure the community will assist them if required.

    I am of course not talking about religion for the hardened capitalists, but more typical people who wish to provide for themselves and family rather then being the selfish capitalist as typified by Ayn Rands writing, which generally typifies a smaller portion of the population
    That isn't exactly true, the social democratic movement happened right after WW2, and prior to that the socialist culture was extremely strong.

    The baby boomers grew up in the 50s and 60s, but were adults in the 1970s, they got into the economy, the late 1970s was the begining of the neo-liberal revolution, and I would argue that that is the time when securalism started to grow.

    You have to look at this as "the western world" not just the US, it includes europe. I would say you're religious background is something you adopt from your parents, but your religious identity is formed around the teens and 20s.

    I don't think you can simply look at it from a standpoint of "welfare" vrs "church charity" you have to look at the whole of society, for example, before the university wasn't to make professionals, it was more authentically a place for just higher learning, back then buisinesses were seen as servants of society, nowerdays it's almost the other way around, even though there wasn't an advanced welfare system, there was the real concept of "the commons" that existed and was stripped away with teh neo-liberal revolution.

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