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Thread: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

  1. #21
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    cant answer the poll, education was not one of the options
    A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West? Where by "failure" I mean its gradual displacement from the center of the moral and intellectual life of they civilization.
    Using your definition of "failure", my answer would be "freedom."
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  3. #23
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Perhaps, but the issue here is the failure of "Christianity in the West," not what makes individuals effed up. You also ignore the fact that the ideals I listed are both correct and not being followed by most people who claim to be Christian.

    Lacking good "real life" examples, people seem to be rejecting the whole concept as unrealistic.
    No they are true to most people ergo they cannot be attributed to Christianity as being the cause.

    Let's see

    "hatred, intolerance, vengeance, cruelty, greed, judgement, and pride" describes how atheists attack Christianity; democrats attack republicans; republicans attack democrats; Muslims view America; America views Muslims; the rich view the poor; the poor view the rich. None of that is unique to Christianity.

    Now where is your proof that this is unique to Christianity and that "most people who claim to be Christian" are that way and are so because they are Christians?

  4. #24
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Basically, religions present too limited worldviews. Reality is more complex and more interesting than the views that religions promote. There is a lot more going on than just submitting to a god, and certainly a lot more than just submitting to various priests. The factual assertions of religions are proven false, and the moral assertions are likewise proven false once various stigmatized minorities are rightly seen as just regular people. It's no longer okay to oppress women like religions so often want to do. The population at large realizes that gays are just like everyone else. The world wasn't created in six days. Laying on of hands doesn't cure ****. There is more to life than submission to a caste system.

    Human knowledge and understanding has become too advanced for narrow ancient ideas.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  5. #25
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Religion was doomed as soon as lifespans passed 65 years or so. The promise of an afterlife is so much more attractive when you only live to 35 and all you had was misery.

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Legalism and hypocrisy.
    Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber. ~Plato

  7. #27
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    No they are true to most people ergo they cannot be attributed to Christianity as being the cause.
    False analogy. Other people are not Christian, and therefore under no obligation to follow the teachings of Christ. We, as "Christians" ARE!

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Let's see

    "hatred, intolerance, vengeance, cruelty, greed, judgement, and pride" describes how atheists attack Christianity; democrats attack republicans; republicans attack democrats; Muslims view America; America views Muslims; the rich view the poor; the poor view the rich. None of that is unique to Christianity.

    Now where is your proof that this is unique to Christianity and that "most people who claim to be Christian" are that way and are so because they are Christians?
    I never said it was "unique to Christianity," however empirical evidence supports my position that Christians fail to adhere to their own ideals.

    I have met thousands of "fellow Christians" in my life, all over the USA and overseas. I have only met a few dozen at most who truly reflected the ideals of Christianity.

    Acts of barbarity and sanctimony by so-called Christians under the cry "God Wills It!" are visible in every form of public media for all to see.

    Beyond that, in this very forum, fellow Christians display few, if any, of those basic ideals.

    I am still Christian, but I can understand why it is failing in the west.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 07-05-13 at 01:30 PM.

  8. #28
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    Where by "failure" I mean its gradual displacement from the center of the moral and intellectual life of they civilization.

    To define these options bit:

    Poll option one is the conservative answer. It holds that Christian belief would be as predominant today in the West as it was in 1913 if it were not for the conscious, deliberate machinations of a small group of secularizing elites promoting atheism and amorality.

    My thoughts: This is the least tenable of the four options I've provided, in part because 'the elite' in the West has never been anti-Christian. To be sure, they are opposed to fundamentalism, but only because it is at odds with liberal-capitalist notions of 'progress'. The invocation of the defense of Occidental Christianity during the Cold War is proof-positive that Western elites want generally to employ Christianity to their own ends.

    Poll option two is the liberal answer, the "secularization thesis". According to this theory, Christianity is doomed to deplacement, as are all religions eventually, by the gradual and wholly unconscious forces of mental and mechanical progress.

    My thoughts: This is almost as problematic a solution to the question posed as the first answer. It assumes a great deal of the structure of Christian ideology - progress towards a "new Heaven and a new Earth", an eventual end to history, and so on - while draining it of its metaphysical content.

    Option three is what I call the Nietzscheite option: Christianity has failed because it is inherently flawed. It can exist only among theoppressed, and as soon as a people become strong enough to shirk ofc a collective sense of inferiority it will abolish the correspondent notimon of individual existential guilt that informs Christianity.

    My opinion: This is the view I hold closest to. Christianity, in a very real sense, requires weakness to thrive (it is little wonder that Christianity is ascendant today only in the impoverished Third World nations of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the American South). A strong people wants a religion of strength and severity.

    Option four: The Marxist solution. Christianity belongs at the historical latest to the age of feudalism; the rising capitalists of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries sought initially to do away with it altogether, as a reminder of the hated age of the nobility, and retain it only as a matter of practicalg politica expedience.

    My opinion: This is superficially similar to the liberal answer, relying on notions of deterministic 'progress', but avoids some of its problems by acknowledging the fact of necessity and human action in historical processes, rather than ascribing all history to forces largely independent of men.
    The westward march of white Christianity and the wars it caused has presented an oxymoronic vision of Christianity and it is the cause of its own demise.

  9. #29
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    False analogy. Other people are not Christian, and therefore under no obligation to follow the teachings of Christ. We, as "Christians" ARE!



    I never said it was "unique to Christianity," however empirical evidence supports my position that Christians fail to adhere to their own ideals.

    I have met thousands of "fellow Christians" in my life, all over the USA and overseas. I have only met a few dozen at most who truly reflected the ideals of Christianity.

    Acts of barbarity and sanctimony by so-called Christians under the cry "God Wills It!" are visible in every form of public media for all to see.

    Beyond that, in this very forum, fellow Christians display few, if any, of those basic ideals.

    I am still Christian, but I can understand why it is failing in the west.
    Christianity is not about being perfect so much as it is being forgiven by God. Christianity is not failing in the west by any stretch of the imagination. Some Churches may be struggling, but it is because they are under increased competition. In the same way that the computer all but killed off the typewriter, mass communications and the internet allow people to be quiet Christians from the comfort of their own home without all the politics within and outside the 4 walls of a building.

  10. #30
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Christianity is not about being perfect so much as it is being forgiven by God. Christianity is not failing in the west by any stretch of the imagination. Some Churches may be struggling, but it is because they are under increased competition. In the same way that the computer all but killed off the typewriter, mass communications and the internet allow people to be quiet Christians from the comfort of their own home without all the politics within and outside the 4 walls of a building.
    Really? REALLY?!?!

    So you can just go through life being a total A-hole...as long as you (scared of the consequences) "sincerely repent" on your deathbed?

    Thank you for supplying an object example of why Christianity is "failing in the west."

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