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Thread: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

  1. #211
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    RGacky3's Avatar
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhat View Post
    Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew for bring Jewish is more than a following a faith; he was part of an ethnic group.
    Ok ... But he celebrated the fetivals, worshiped at the temple, studied and quoted the Tanakh all the time, claimed to be the Jewish Messiah, was a monotheist, worshiped and prayed to yahweh, affirmed the Shama ....

    He didn't found Christianity, his disciples did.

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    https://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell

    Any small amount of biblical knowledge would make it clear that hell is in the bible, but that link is pretty concise than I could have been.
    This is a complex theological issue, if I were to go through every scripture cited and then talk about the other scriptures it would take a long time, it's not that straight forward.

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    This is a complex theological issue, if I were to go through every scripture cited and then talk about the other scriptures it would take a long time, it's not that straight forward.
    The existence of hell as a core tenant of Christianity is not a complex theological issue, it's a simple linguistic one. People who try to twist and turn the possible meanings of hell-fire and brimstone are kidding themselves.

    Any Christian who denies the concept of hell is doing a disservice to their religion. It's one of the things Christianity actually has going for it over a lot of other religions: The penalty for apostasy is applied in hell after you die (which isn't scary if you don't believe in it). That stands in stark contrast to Islam which dictates that the penalty for apostasy is that you get killed immediately (I'm not claiming Muslims go around killing apostates, I'm just saying they would if they actually followed their holy book).

    To claim you believe in Christianity, but not the God of the Old Testament, and that you believe in heaven but not hell really takes cherry picking to a whole new level. I'm still curious as to who Rainman thinks created the world if his God didn't exist then.
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    The existence of hell as a core tenant of Christianity is not a complex theological issue, it's a simple linguistic one. People who try to twist and turn the possible meanings of hell-fire and brimstone are kidding themselves.

    Any Christian who denies the concept of hell is doing a disservice to their religion. It's one of the things Christianity actually has going for it over a lot of other religions: The penalty for apostasy is applied in hell after you die (which isn't scary if you don't believe in it). That stands in stark contrast to Islam which dictates that the penalty for apostasy is that you get killed immediately (I'm not claiming Muslims go around killing apostates, I'm just saying they would if they actually followed their holy book).

    To claim you believe in Christianity, but not the God of the Old Testament, and that you believe in heaven but not hell really takes cherry picking to a whole new level. I'm still curious as to who Rainman thinks created the world if his God didn't exist then.
    Hell meaning gehennah or hades? Which one are you reffering to ....

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Hell meaning gehennah or hades? Which one are you reffering to ....
    Well, if you refer back to the point and context inwhich it was raised (which is that having an irreligious view of Christianity is fundamentally unchristian, as the concept of admission to heaven and hell is well defined by Christianity, and it requires repentance for sin and/or acceptance of Christ) then it doesn't make a difference which exact description of hell you use. The point is, Christianity holds that there is one God and that he had one Son, and that there is punishment in the afterlife for not picking the right God and savior to worship and follow while you were alive. That's all the hell there needs to be for my point to be correct.
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    Well, if you refer back to the point and context inwhich it was raised (which is that having an irreligious view of Christianity is fundamentally unchristian, as the concept of admission to heaven and hell is well defined by Christianity, and it requires repentance for sin and/or acceptance of Christ) then it doesn't make a difference which exact description of hell you use. The point is, Christianity holds that there is one God and that he had one Son, and that there is punishment in the afterlife for not picking the right God and savior to worship and follow while you were alive. That's all the hell there needs to be for my point to be correct.
    Where the in the bible? And what word in the bible are you translating as "hell" in that sense ... Hades is just the common grave, Gehennah meand eternal destruction, or cutting off ... meaning death with no ressurection.

    Just because YOUR theology believes in hell doesn't mean its integral to CHristianity as a whole, or that it's biblical.

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    What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Ok ... But he celebrated the fetivals, worshiped at the temple, studied and quoted the Tanakh all the time, claimed to be the Jewish Messiah, was a monotheist, worshiped and prayed to yahweh, affirmed the Shama ....

    He didn't found Christianity, his disciples did.
    You are correct.

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    Where by "failure" I mean its gradual displacement from the center of the moral and intellectual life of they civilization.

    To define these options bit:

    Poll option one is the conservative answer. It holds that Christian belief would be as predominant today in the West as it was in 1913 if it were not for the conscious, deliberate machinations of a small group of secularizing elites promoting atheism and amorality.

    My thoughts: This is the least tenable of the four options I've provided, in part because 'the elite' in the West has never been anti-Christian. To be sure, they are opposed to fundamentalism, but only because it is at odds with liberal-capitalist notions of 'progress'. The invocation of the defense of Occidental Christianity during the Cold War is proof-positive that Western elites want generally to employ Christianity to their own ends.

    Poll option two is the liberal answer, the "secularization thesis". According to this theory, Christianity is doomed to deplacement, as are all religions eventually, by the gradual and wholly unconscious forces of mental and mechanical progress.

    My thoughts: This is almost as problematic a solution to the question posed as the first answer. It assumes a great deal of the structure of Christian ideology - progress towards a "new Heaven and a new Earth", an eventual end to history, and so on - while draining it of its metaphysical content.

    Option three is what I call the Nietzscheite option: Christianity has failed because it is inherently flawed. It can exist only among theoppressed, and as soon as a people become strong enough to shirk ofc a collective sense of inferiority it will abolish the correspondent notimon of individual existential guilt that informs Christianity.

    My opinion: This is the view I hold closest to. Christianity, in a very real sense, requires weakness to thrive (it is little wonder that Christianity is ascendant today only in the impoverished Third World nations of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the American South). A strong people wants a religion of strength and severity.

    Option four: The Marxist solution. Christianity belongs at the historical latest to the age of feudalism; the rising capitalists of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries sought initially to do away with it altogether, as a reminder of the hated age of the nobility, and retain it only as a matter of practicalg politica expedience.

    My opinion: This is superficially similar to the liberal answer, relying on notions of deterministic 'progress', but avoids some of its problems by acknowledging the fact of necessity and human action in historical processes, rather than ascribing all history to forces largely independent of men.
    I would say your preferred option is half there. In the West we have become indolent and wealthy - we are strong "as a people", perhaps, but weak as individuals. Significant portions of us seek to maximize frivolous self-pleasure (the result being that we get none, like jobs, joy is a by-product not an end in itself). Christianity dies not because we are stronger, but because we no longer face challenges, and so we are weaker.

  9. #219
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Where the in the bible? And what word in the bible are you translating as "hell" in that sense ... Hades is just the common grave, Gehennah meand eternal destruction, or cutting off ... meaning death with no ressurection.

    Just because YOUR theology believes in hell doesn't mean its integral to CHristianity as a whole, or that it's biblical.
    Wait what? My theology believes in hell? Since when? This isn't about my theology, it's about the biblical references to punishment in the afterlife for not believing in God and Jesus. Can people ignore it and still call themselves Christians? Sure. I could call myself a Jew today, Muslim tomorrow, and a Christian on Monday without ever changing my beliefs. It wouldn't mean I was actually a believer in any of those religions (I'm not, incidentally).
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  10. #220
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    That's true since humans invented Christianity and all other religions, it's easy to just point fingers at humans and pretend that the people who believe in and support religion are no worse than anyone else. That's not really true though, these are irrational people who believe in imaginary friends in the sky. They are often willing to ignore basic morality and logic in order to cling to their emotionally comforting faith. That's why we blame Christians and Christianity for the problems caused by the beliefs and the believers. They've earned it.
    So according to you the sins of a few justifies the condemnation of the whole? You live in CA, a state where pot is legal. According to you, if you are a supporter of the legalization of canibis, that makes a good for nothing, delusional pot-head who has "moments of clarity" during highs and posts things on this forum. That's of course according to your narrow view of Chrisitanity.

    Tell me Cephus, were you present during creation? Were you present during the Big Bang? Isn't what you perceive as logic just a series of processed thoughts that your mind believes to be truth? Isn't logic just an ideal conjured by the mind of Greek philosophers who were also trying to understand the universe and its mysteries?

    If Albert Einstein himself could not disprove creation in pursuit of the truth while researching his theories (which by the way lead to his belief in a beginning), what makes you think that you have found the truth of the universe?

    Point being, your belief that Christianity is as fake as Candy land is farce. I don't profess to know the truth either, no one knows if God is real or not.

    Your response makes you seem rather irrational.
    “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
    -Benjamin Franklin

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