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Thread: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

  1. #191
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Looks like a matter of perspective to me.

    Asfaik, it's a tenet of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Baha'i faith that there is only one God, and no god besides God. Hence these religions are called "monotheistic".

    When you're a believer of either of these religions, it would thus be "idolatry" if you claimed there was more than just this one God, you'd contradict the most basic tenet of your religion.. If you're Christian, that leaves only two possibilities: Either the Jewish God was not a God (but a mere unreal figment of imagination, a lesser spirit, etc), or it is the same one God Christians are worshipping.

    The other view would be the distanced, irreligious view: Gods exist only in the minds of the believers. Hence, when believers of different religions ascribe different attributes to their respective God, they're different Gods. Because in this irreligious view, God is not real, but merely man's different ideas of God. According to this view, Jews worship a different God than Christians, since their theology is different.
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  2. #192
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    The other view would be the distanced, irreligious view: Gods exist only in the minds of the believers. Hence, when believers of different religions ascribe different attributes to their respective God, they're different Gods. Because in this irreligious view, God is not real, but merely man's different ideas of God. According to this view, Jews worship a different God than Christians, since their theology is different.
    This may be the case, but it contradicts one of the core concepts of Christianity, which is that it's real whether you believe it or not, and those who don't believe in it will suffer for all eternity in hell. Taking an irreligious view towards the Christian God and being a Christian are mutually exclusive.
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  3. #193
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    This may be the case, but it contradicts one of the core concepts of Christianity, which is that it's real whether you believe it or not, and those who don't believe in it will suffer for all eternity in hell. Taking an irreligious view towards the Christian God and being a Christian are mutually exclusive.
    One does not have to believe in hell to be a Christian. That was stated clearly to me in the Christian thread.

  4. #194
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by captainawesome View Post
    One does not have to believe in hell to be a Christian. That was stated clearly to me in the Christian thread.
    Someone could say that you don't have to believe in Jesus to be a Christian (which wouldn't even surprise me at this point) but it wouldn't make it true. Heaven and hell are core tenants of Christianity. If you don't believe in them, you aren't a Christian regardless of what label you choose to give yourself.
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  5. #195
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by 99percenter View Post
    It is especially true for Christianity. It has been used as an excuse for oppression of blacks, gays, jews, muslims, native americans. It was a justification for slavery, holocaust, crusades, inquisition, racism, manifest destiny, class warfare, pedophilia, and countless other atrocities.
    There has and will always be people who use an inherently good ideal to advance their politics. Religion has been used by certain selfish people throughout history for evil, just as the notion of freedom, democracy, and science has. None of which are primarily evil practices. Your hate for religion seems narrow, and makes it seem like you don't understand the simple fact that some humans are more zealously self-interested than others.

    Point being..... Christianity isn't at fault, HUMANS and their basic faults are.

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    Someone could say that you don't have to believe in Jesus to be a Christian (which wouldn't even surprise me at this point) but it wouldn't make it true. Heaven and hell are core tenants of Christianity. If you don't believe in them, you aren't a Christian regardless of what label you choose to give yourself.
    I was just told again that hell is not in the bible.

    I guess the bible can just mean anything. Which makes it mean nothing.

  7. #197
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by 99percenter View Post
    Religion is a form of oppression. People in power want to keep people below them stupid and religion is the easiest way to do that. Religion is also a tool to incite violence. Bad people become hero's because they are doing god's work.
    Yes. So option 3 and 4 then?

    Also, I voted by considering that it is not just Christianity at stake but every religion.
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Asfaik, it's a tenet of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Baha'i faith that there is only one God, and no god besides God. Hence these religions are called "monotheistic".

    When you're a believer of either of these religions, it would thus be "idolatry" if you claimed there was more than just this one God, you'd contradict the most basic tenet of your religion.. If you're Christian, that leaves only two possibilities: Either the Jewish God was not a God (but a mere unreal figment of imagination, a lesser spirit, etc), or it is the same one God Christians are worshipping.

    The other view would be the distanced, irreligious view: Gods exist only in the minds of the believers. Hence, when believers of different religions ascribe different attributes to their respective God, they're different Gods. Because in this irreligious view, God is not real, but merely man's different ideas of God. According to this view, Jews worship a different God than Christians, since their theology is different.
    Hence Horses attribute horse like features to God and so do cows, rats, bugs, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
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  9. #199
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Also, I voted by considering that it is not just Christianity at stake but every religion.
    And that's a good thing. The sooner we get rid of religion entirely, even if it's just the more fundamentalist, evangelical religions, the better.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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  10. #200
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning View Post
    Point being..... Christianity isn't at fault, HUMANS and their basic faults are.
    That's true since humans invented Christianity and all other religions, it's easy to just point fingers at humans and pretend that the people who believe in and support religion are no worse than anyone else. That's not really true though, these are irrational people who believe in imaginary friends in the sky. They are often willing to ignore basic morality and logic in order to cling to their emotionally comforting faith. That's why we blame Christians and Christianity for the problems caused by the beliefs and the believers. They've earned it.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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