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Thread: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

  1. #121
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Yes. And they were made there to mock the jews. As in "ha ha, you killed your

    king".
    Why would the Romans call him Jewish if he wasn't?

    He lived with the Jews, preached to the Jews, was called Rabbi and constantly referred to the scriptures.

    Luke 4:16

    16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read.


    He himself said...

    John 4:22

    22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.


    He was rejected by Judaism as a false Messiah but I don't think he was considered anything but Jewish during his lifetime.
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Another aspect of poll-options 2-4 is the increase in mentalism, educational awareness, health, and longevity of people out here in the west.

    Early on, we get a time table sense of our expected longevity and the impression that a tragic abrupt end is also comparatively rare.

    So we plan, as westerners do, and those plans include a long life, starting with a fun adolescence, choice of lucrative careers and college, state-of-the-art healthcare, raising kids, grandkids, and prospering well into our 90s.

    When we're in our 20s, we don't think, therefore, much about dying, about a premature demise, and are mostly focused on thriving here in the material world.

    As civilization progress removes a lot of the dangers that were ever present in the not too distant past, we think less about dying and more about really enjoying life.

    Since the foundation of Christianity is about living forever in Heaven through Christ, complete with painful-world toleration coping mechanisms, such thinking has become back-burner fare that only awareness of one's or a loved-one's imminent death creates the motivation to move it to the front burner.

    The western mentalism, however, compromises our spirituality, in a non-religious sense, as mentalism's foundational function is thinking, and spirituality's foundational function is feeling, especially intuitive feeling.

    More spititual people still contemplate the meaning of life and the reality of our material mortality, and although they are more inclined to practice a faith, maybe even one of Christianity, today it's less likely to be one of fundamentalist legalism.
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    Why would the Romans call him Jewish if he wasn't?

    He lived with the Jews, preached to the Jews, was called Rabbi and constantly referred to the scriptures.
    Again, as a mockery. "ha ha, you jews killed your king, ha ha". Pontus Pilate never wished for Jesus to die, but since he had to have him executed to avert a crisis, he decided to mock the jews who sentenced him to die. As Jesus never called himself a King, and promised a kingdom of abundance in the afterlife, not this life... as the jews wanted, well... you see the delicious irony and sarcasm found in just a few small words.

    Rabbi means teachers. he was a teacher.

  4. #124
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Again, as a mockery. "ha ha, you jews killed your king, ha ha". Pontus Pilate never wished for Jesus to die, but since he had to have him executed to avert a crisis, he decided to mock the jews who sentenced him to die. As Jesus never called himself a King, and promised a kingdom of abundance in the afterlife, not this life... as the jews wanted, well... you see the delicious irony and sarcasm found in just a few small words.

    Rabbi means teachers. he was a teacher.
    You missed my point. If he wasn't Jewish and the Sanhedrin didn't recognize him as such why would calling him "King of the Jews" bother them? It's because he was one of their own and they rejected his teachings and interpretation of the scriptures.

    Rabbi literally translates to "My Master", but it's recognized as meaning religious teacher and person authorized to make decisions on issues of Jewish law.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  5. #125
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by captainawesome View Post
    If there is a father and son there must be a mother. Christianity can't handle the logic so they just avoid the issue.
    That would be Mary and some scholars say she was head of the Catholic Church in the very beginning until the church was hijacked by Peter and women became "unclean". We will never know for sure I guess.
    It does seem strange that God choose a woman to bear his only son when he could of just "poofed" him into existence. Does not that make a woman the sex chosen by God as the most "holy"?
    Last edited by iguanaman; 07-09-13 at 03:49 PM.

  6. #126
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    That would be Mary and some scholars say she was head of the Catholic Church in the very beginning until the church was hijacked by Peter and women became "unclean". We will never know for sure I guess.
    It does seem strange that God choose a woman to bear his only son when he could of just "poofed" him into existence. Does not that make a woman the sex chosen by God as the most "holy"?
    One of the things I've most wondered about regarding Christianity. As the story goes, Mary asked the angel how she could be pregnant, since she was a virgin. The angel told her that God had made her pregnant through a miracle. When you really think about it...this means that Mary was supposedly impregnated without giving her consent. A non-consensual act that causes a pregnancy today...not a good thing.

    Now, I would pose the same question that you did about why god didn't just poof Jesus into existence...sort of like the story went with Adam and Eve. I mean Jesus could have been instantly created as a baby...left on Mary's door step. That obviously wouldn't have been as dramatic, finding a baby on her doorstep. And the catholic religion would be significantly different, if non-existent because Mary plays a pretty big role in that religion. Although if Mary did find Jesus at her door and she took him in and raised him pretty much the same way that she did...then that might have made altruism more admired. Wait, if Mary found Jesus on her doorstep...there would also have to be a note attached to Jesus saying that the was the son of god, which might not work. Sooo, I guess we have to go back to the virgin birth thing again for the supernatural effect. Today a virgin birth is called "artificial insemination".

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    One of the things I've most wondered about regarding Christianity. As the story goes, Mary asked the angel how she could be pregnant, since she was a virgin. The angel told her that God had made her pregnant through a miracle. When you really think about it...this means that Mary was supposedly impregnated without giving her consent. A non-consensual act that causes a pregnancy today...not a good thing.
    Apparently, according to theists, God gets to rape 13-year old girls. Go figure.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    Where by "failure" I mean its gradual displacement from the center of the moral and intellectual life of they civilization.

    To define these options bit:

    Poll option one is the conservative answer. It holds that Christian belief would be as predominant today in the West as it was in 1913 if it were not for the conscious, deliberate machinations of a small group of secularizing elites promoting atheism and amorality.

    My thoughts: This is the least tenable of the four options I've provided, in part because 'the elite' in the West has never been anti-Christian. To be sure, they are opposed to fundamentalism, but only because it is at odds with liberal-capitalist notions of 'progress'. The invocation of the defense of Occidental Christianity during the Cold War is proof-positive that Western elites want generally to employ Christianity to their own ends.

    Poll option two is the liberal answer, the "secularization thesis". According to this theory, Christianity is doomed to deplacement, as are all religions eventually, by the gradual and wholly unconscious forces of mental and mechanical progress.

    My thoughts: This is almost as problematic a solution to the question posed as the first answer. It assumes a great deal of the structure of Christian ideology - progress towards a "new Heaven and a new Earth", an eventual end to history, and so on - while draining it of its metaphysical content.

    Option three is what I call the Nietzscheite option: Christianity has failed because it is inherently flawed. It can exist only among theoppressed, and as soon as a people become strong enough to shirk ofc a collective sense of inferiority it will abolish the correspondent notimon of individual existential guilt that informs Christianity.

    My opinion: This is the view I hold closest to. Christianity, in a very real sense, requires weakness to thrive (it is little wonder that Christianity is ascendant today only in the impoverished Third World nations of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the American South). A strong people wants a religion of strength and severity.

    Option four: The Marxist solution. Christianity belongs at the historical latest to the age of feudalism; the rising capitalists of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries sought initially to do away with it altogether, as a reminder of the hated age of the nobility, and retain it only as a matter of practicalg politica expedience.

    My opinion: This is superficially similar to the liberal answer, relying on notions of deterministic 'progress', but avoids some of its problems by acknowledging the fact of necessity and human action in historical processes, rather than ascribing all history to forces largely independent of men.
    Whether or not Christianity has "failed" at all is frankly a matter of some debate. However, going off of what you have presented, I think the reason behind the relative decline in Western Christian influence in recent centuries can be primarily attributed to a combination of options one (Conservative), three (Nietzscheite), and four (Marxist).

    The Conservative explanation is correct in pointing out that a deliberate and persistent movement to marginalize and discredit the view of ethics and the world in general presented by Christianity in favor of more "progressive" ideas can be observed to exist among the Western "intellectual elite." The Marxist explanation, for its own part, is correct in pointing out that this movement originated during the Enlightenment era among Liberals, Libertines, and Capitalists who sought to remake the prevailing European social and political order of the 18th and 19th centuries in their own, overwhelmingly secular and materialist, image.

    While the popularity of this goal has waxed and waned over the course of the decades since in the face of the different challenges Western Civilization has come to face (i.e. as you pointed out yourself, the threat of atheistic, anti-Liberal, and anti-Capitalist Communists resulted in a strong resurgence of pro-Christian messages in mainstream culture during the mid 20th Century), it has never gone away completely among the ranks of the Western intelligentsia. In today's world, for example, the banner of the anti-Christian, anti-theist, and anti-traditionalist cause is unsubtly (and some might even say, proudly) borne by academia and the mainstream media alike.

    However, at the end of the day, you are correct in pointing out that the plots and machinations of society's elite can only carry things so far by themselves. This is where the Nietzscheite explanation comes into play.

    It is absolutely no secret that Christianity, and even religion in general, thrive most in times of want and adversity. The New Testament itself admits to this fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew 19:24
    "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
    The simple fact of the matter is that human beings are shallow and selfish creatures who will always look to their own gratification before any loftier goal. As such, most of them have no real need to look to the supernatural for validation or comfort when earthly goods are present in abundance. The idea of heavenly paradise in the hereafter often seems trite when one can find hedonistic pleasures aplenty right here on earth.

    In case you haven't noticed, earthly goods and hedonistic pleasures ad infinitum are precisely what our modern consumerist society seeks to, and often does, provide its citizenry.

    As standards of living and leisure in the Western World continue to climb ever higher, so too has the relative importance of religion begun to fade into the background of social consciousness for many people. After all, no one wants to be lectured on the value of such concepts as "temperance," "responsibility," or "morality" when living in a society which seemingly allows one to bypass them all entirely.

    This is a phenomena which, as I have already pointed out, academia and the media have been only too happy to support in the interests of furthering their own agenda. They encourage and enable such behavior with the increasingly crass and risqué material they continue to churn out year after year.

    Keep in mind, however; that none of this is to say that any of these developments have necessarily been for the better. Given the general state of the Western World in our current era, it would actually seem to have been much for the worse.

    Rampant apathy and hedonistic excess are slowly but surely bringing Western Civilization to its knees.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 07-09-13 at 06:51 PM.

  9. #129
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    The answer to the OP is simple: There is no evidence the God, as described in the Bible, exists.
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    The option I would choose is not there. I think that the lessening impact of the church in the West is caused by two factors:

    1) Alternatives to social/information gathering. 100 years ago and earlier, the church was the social and informational hub of many towns and locales. With the advent and common usage and access of communication technology and transportation technology. the church is no longer the center of either socializing or gathering information, either locally or beyond.

    2) Media presentation of religious extremists. From "televangelists" to news stories of the behavior or religious extremists, the media saturation of the religious who are outside of the mainstream has impacted the overall perception of many in the West. Most folks are NOT extremists, including people who are religious, but when extremism is packaged with the religious name, it is easy to make too close of an association of the two.

    I don't see Christianity as "failing" in the West, but I do see it's influence as falling.
    2 Thessalonian 2:[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    [4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    [6] And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    [7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    [9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    [10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    [11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    [12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    [13] But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
    Keep the faith brother.
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