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Thread: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

  1. #111
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Jesus was a Judean. there is no evidence of him being Jewish, as in, the adept of the judean faith. He didn't keep any of the jewish celebrations, he didn't hold the rabbi order in any high regard and there is no evidence of him ever being of the jewish religion.

    He was the founder of Christianity.

    Let me make it clear about what Jesus was in concern to his divinity and to clear the whole part as to why the Christian God is not the same God as in the Old testament in as simple terms as I possibly can. A simple cause and effect relationship.

    In order for there to be a Christian God, you need Christ. No Christ, no Christian God. Since Christ didn't exist till the New testament, anything that is in the Old Testament is something other than the Christian God. Got it? I can't make it any more simple than this. I really can't.



    Ok. Let's check my post:



    Good that you acknowledge that the money part was the metaphor. I shall give you the same reply. as I did your colleague in absurdity to respond to the second part. Read it above. It's the part with the causality relation.
    You're either missing, or deliberately avoiding your initial claim, which was that the Christian God is not the same God who was responsible for the plagues as described in the Old Testament. It's nonsense and you haven't actually disputed it. It's the same God, the God that Jesus claimed to be. "I and my Father are one" John 10:30

    You are suggesting that there was no father until there was a son. It makes no sense, even from the Christian perspective. Jesus' claim that he was God was based on the prophecies from the Old Testament. If you don't believe in the God that fortold the coming of his son, then how can you believe that the son is the son of God? The whole thing makes no sense.
    Last edited by HumanBeing; 07-09-13 at 01:35 PM.
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  2. #112
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    The letters “INRI” are initials for the Latin title that Pontius Pilate had written over the head of Jesus Christ on the cross.

    The acronym INRI (Iēsus Nazarēnus, Rēx Iūdaeōrum) represents the Latin inscription which in English reads as "Jesus the Nazarene, King of the Jews".
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    There is plenty of evidence that Jesus was born Jewish, because everybody was Jewish at the time he was preaching. To have the "son of God" you need the God of the old testament to be the Father. It can't get any simpler than that.
    Oh and Christ was not he founder of the Christian church since it happened after his demise. I believe Peter is considered the founder, hence St. Peters cathedral in the Vatican.
    Ah, actually that isn't true. There were a whole lot of other religions that existed and thrived in that region. From various religions like zoroasterism and the egyptian polytheist religion and other pagan ones to the roman pagan religions.

    but as to the claim of him being jewish.

    So while yes, he did identify himself as the Son of God, as in the Son of God from the Jewish Testament, one of the first things he did from when we first read of Him was to be baptized by John the Baptist, hence, establishing baptism and Christianity. Sure, he was circumcized but then again, circumcizion is not an integration ritual into being Jewish... if so, many american males would be jewish and a lot of african ones today.

    So maybe you can make a case that because his parents were Jews, that makes him a Jew... and that may be true to some degree, but the moment he had a choice in the matter, he left Judaism and established Christianity.

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    The letters “INRI” are initials for the Latin title that Pontius Pilate had written over the head of Jesus Christ on the cross.

    The acronym INRI (Iēsus Nazarēnus, Rēx Iūdaeōrum) represents the Latin inscription which in English reads as "Jesus the Nazarene, King of the Jews".
    Yes. And they were made there to mock the jews. As in "ha ha, you killed your king".

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    If there is a father and son there must be a mother. Christianity can't handle the logic so they just avoid the issue.

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    You're either missing, or deliberately avoiding your initial claim, which was that the Christian God is not the same God who was responsible for the plagues as described in the Old Testament. It's nonsense and you haven't actually disputed it. It's the same God, the God that Jesus claimed to be. "I and my Father are one" John 10:30

    You are suggesting that there was no father until there was a son. It makes no sense, even from the Christian perspective. Jesus' claim that he was God was based on the prophecies from the Old Testament. If you don't believe in the God that fortold the coming of his son, then how can you believe that the son is the son of God? The whole thing makes no sense.
    I made a long and extremely thorough post on the prophecies. the jest of it is:
    there are a lot of conflicting prophecies about jesus and you can put them in 3 categories.

    1. The detailed ones that told us about where he was going to be born and how he would be identified (of the line of David and born in Bethleem, etc).
    2. The peace-loving ones where they told us how he would heal the world and bring peace..
    3. The ones that aren't peace-loving that told us that he would strike down the enemies of Israel and establish Israel as the greatest nation, enslaving others etc.

    So #2 and #3 don't really mix and it does seem to be written by bipolar jews who wanted either a hippy or a mass murderer. Maybe depending on how they were feeling about the Egyptians, Baylonians or what other nation they hated at each particular time in their history.

    Needless to say, Jesus didn't bother much with #3, partially fulfilled #2 and was right on #1. The closest he got to #3 was when he said mean words at the rabbi order "den of vipers" because they were as such.

    So yeah.

    Again. Simple cause-and-effect relationship.

    You can't have a Christian God until you have Christ. If you don't have Christ in ancient Egypt, Sodoma and gomorra, the flood... so yeah. etc. You do have a Jewish God.

  7. #117
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    All of the above.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
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  8. #118
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Ah, actually that isn't true. There were a whole lot of other religions that existed and thrived in that region. From various religions like zoroasterism and the egyptian polytheist religion and other pagan ones to the roman pagan religions.

    but as to the claim of him being jewish.

    So while yes, he did identify himself as the Son of God, as in the Son of God from the Jewish Testament, one of the first things he did from when we first read of Him was to be baptized by John the Baptist, hence, establishing baptism and Christianity. Sure, he was circumcized but then again, circumcizion is not an integration ritual into being Jewish... if so, many american males would be jewish and a lot of african ones today.

    So maybe you can make a case that because his parents were Jews, that makes him a Jew... and that may be true to some degree, but the moment he had a choice in the matter, he left Judaism and established Christianity.
    The Jewish myths of the messiah make no reference to a son of god. All of that was added later by early Roman Christians to make their beliefs more palatable to Romans they were trying to convert. It has absolutely no roots in Judaism. The messiah is just a man in Jewish theology. Not a descendant of god.

    Everything Jesus preached were elements of contemporary Judaism. The majority of his preaching was about strict adherence to Jewish law. Not only was he a Jew with no interest in establishing another religion, he was a fundamentalist Jew. And that Jesus and a bunch of other people were baptized in a river clearly demonstrates that baptism was already a normal thing at that time, and thus a part of Judaism.

    I'm not quoting your earlier post about "He didn't keep any of the jewish celebrations" directly, but you do know that the last supper was a Passover celebration, right? Also, weird that you capitalize a pronoun but not a proper name.

    These are some of the reasons that, in the modern world of knowledge and information, religion does not hold up. It requires too much cognitive dissonance to believe thousand year old stories and ignore all of the learning that took place since. In this case, holding these views on Christianity requires a functional ignorance of Judaism. That was possible when there was minimal peaceful contact between the two groups, but now Jewish ideas are easily accessible. One of the core claims of Christianity is fulfillment of Jewish law, but it gets that law wrong constantly. That kind of cognitive dissonance gets harder and harder in the face of modern learning.
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    I think Christianity is disappearing because of polarization.

    We have come to a point in Western civilization where your party is against anything the other party is for and vice versa. Polarization really took root here in the United States in the '60s and, since conservatives were pro-Christianity, liberals had no choice but be anti-Christianity. Anyone who has looked at a voter registration list while working on a campaign can tell you nearly *MOST* Catholic priests and nuns are registered Democrats. With young people no longer hearing the call, most priests and nuns are older and registered during the 60's and 70's when extreme polarization was just taking root.

    It just goes to show how Christian this country was that it has taken so long to really become an issue. As recently as the Clinton Administration, Democrats were still touting their faith to appeal to voters.

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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The Jewish myths of the messiah make no reference to a son of god. All of that was added later by early Roman Christians to make their beliefs more palatable to Romans they were trying to convert. It has absolutely no roots in Judaism. The messiah is just a man in Jewish theology. Not a descendant of god.

    Everything Jesus preached were elements of contemporary Judaism. The majority of his preaching was about strict adherence to Jewish law. Not only was he a Jew with no interest in establishing another religion, he was a fundamentalist Jew. And that Jesus and a bunch of other people were baptized in a river clearly demonstrates that baptism was already a normal thing at that time, and thus a part of Judaism.

    I'm not quoting your earlier post about "He didn't keep any of the jewish celebrations" directly, but you do know that the last supper was a Passover celebration, right? Also, weird that you capitalize a pronoun but not a proper name. I type fast. Please don't consider the fact that I don't capitalize everything all the time as anything but the desire to quickly address the multiple issues I'm handling in the most expedient manner possible without infringing on the context and the information transmitted.

    These are some of the reasons that, in the modern world of knowledge and information, religion does not hold up. It requires too much cognitive dissonance to believe thousand year old stories and ignore all of the learning that took place since. In this case, holding these views on Christianity requires a functional ignorance of Judaism. That was possible when there was minimal peaceful contact between the two groups, but now Jewish ideas are easily accessible. One of the core claims of Christianity is fulfillment of Jewish law, but it gets that law wrong constantly. That kind of cognitive dissonance gets harder and harder in the face of modern learning.
    Ok. Since I never really held the Bible to be a scientific document, I don't care to argue it from the perspective of what is or isn't scientifically plausible.

    And no, Christianity is not the fulfillment of the jewish prophecy or law or rules or whatever(since the jews don't think that also). Christianity is an independent entity. If tomorrow judaism would disappear, Christianity would still be fine and dandy all on its own.

    He was not a fundamentalist Jew by any stretch of the imagination. That's why the rabbi's hated him and wanted him dead... so they engineered it.

    Baptism is a Christian thing only. The fact that other people baptised after Jesus did was because He did it and they wanted to be Christians. Not because it was the normal thing. Bathing wasn't even a normal thing at that time in history.

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