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Thread: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

  1. #101
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    The God that Christians believe in unleashed a plague on Egypt. Ten plagues actually, because once is just never enough when it comes to biological terrorism and ethnic cleansing.
    No, that's the god that the jews believe in.

    We believe in Christ. Get your fact straight.

  2. #102
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    No, that's the god that the jews believe in.

    We believe in Christ. Get your fact straight.
    Same God, no? If it isn't the same God, then who fortold the coming of Christ? And if that's a different God and not the same one, wouldn't that make Christianity a form of polytheism as Muslims like to claim? My understanding is that Christians and Jews believe in the same God and the same book. The only difference is Christians also have an additional book, and believe that Jesus was the "flesh incarnation" of God (but still the same God as the one who wrote the Old Testament). Correct me if I got any of that wrong.
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  3. #103
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    Same God, no? If it isn't the same God, then who fortold the coming of Christ? And if that's a different God and not the same one, wouldn't that make Christianity a form of polytheism as Muslims like to claim? My understanding is that Christians and Jews believe in the same God and the same book. The only difference is Christians also have an additional book, and believe that Jesus was the "flesh incarnation" of God (but still the same God as the one who wrote the Old Testament). Correct me if I got any of that wrong.
    Again.

    Jewish god = Yahweh + the holy spirit. (?)

    Christian god = God (formerly known as Yahweh) + the holy spirit + Jesus Christ.

    Therefore,
    Jewish god =/= Christian God.

    The old testament in Christianity serves to set the stage for the coming of Christ. Without the old testament, Jesus is not the son of God, but some random bloke claiming to be someone who has never been mentioned before. Who would this "god" be that Jesus claims to be a son of.
    And why did he die? What are sins? What is the original sin and how does baptism remove it?

    The Old testament is like the 5min intro into a movie which sets the stage of the world in which the story takes place. The New Testament is the rest of the movie which has the meaningful aspects in it. It is hence why all the stuff that happens in the Old Testament has but a inheritance relationship to Christianity, but holding Christianity responsible for it is stupid.

    It's like, if your father made a fortune and passed it on to you, you now have a fortune, but you do not have the merit of making that fortune with all the consequences of the actions needed to make the fortune.

    Of course, I by no means associate the Old Testament with any monetary value. it was just a pure metaphor.

  4. #104
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Again.

    Jewish god = Yahweh + the holy spirit. (?)

    Christian god = God (formerly known as Yahweh) + the holy spirit + Jesus Christ.

    Therefore,
    Jewish god =/= Christian God.

    The old testament in Christianity serves to set the stage for the coming of Christ. Without the old testament, Jesus is not the son of God, but some random bloke claiming to be someone who has never been mentioned before. Who would this "god" be that Jesus claims to be a son of.
    And why did he die? What are sins? What is the original sin and how does baptism remove it?

    The Old testament is like the 5min intro into a movie which sets the stage of the world in which the story takes place. The New Testament is the rest of the movie which has the meaningful aspects in it. It is hence why all the stuff that happens in the Old Testament has but a inheritance relationship to Christianity, but holding Christianity responsible for it is stupid.

    It's like, if your father made a fortune and passed it on to you, you now have a fortune, but you do not have the merit of making that fortune with all the consequences of the actions needed to make the fortune.

    Of course, I by no means associate the Old Testament with any monetary value. it was just a pure metaphor.
    So Jesus is "part of" the same God who unleashed the plagues, it's something referenced by one of your two holy books. I don't really understand what you think I got wrong. Also if the coming of Christ was a pure metaphor, then how can you claim to believe that Christ is God? Or when you say "pure" metaphor, do you actually mean you believe some bits but not the rest? You can't believe Jesus is God if you don't believe any of the Old Testament. If the Old Testament wasn't the word of God, then Jesus was just a regular dude.

    We've gone substantially off topic and off point, but despite telling me to get my facts straight, it doesn't actually seem as though you're disagreeing with my version of the facts. Like you said, the Christian God is Yahweh + others.
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  5. #105
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    So Jesus is "part of" the same God who unleashed the plagues, it's something referenced by one of your two holy books. I don't really understand what you think I got wrong. Also if the coming of Christ was a pure metaphor, then how can you claim to believe that Christ is God? Or when you say "pure" metaphor, do you actually mean you believe some bits but not the rest? You can't believe Jesus is God if you don't believe any of the Old Testament. If the Old Testament wasn't the word of God, then Jesus was just a regular dude.

    We've gone substantially off topic and off point, but despite telling me to get my facts straight, it doesn't actually seem as though you're disagreeing with my version of the facts. Like you said, the Christian God is Yahweh + others.
    No, the coming of Jesus is not the metaphor. The metaphor was about the inheritance part. The one with the money.

    Christ is God. he is the third part of what makes God as the Christian God.
    There is no Christian God without Jesus.

    I never said that the Old Testament is not the word of God. But it's the word of the jewish God. The other God. Not the Christian God. For it to be the word of the Christian God it needs to have Christ... which it didn't in the Old Testament. Get it? It's really not that hard.

  6. #106
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by 99percenter View Post
    LOL. Their symbol is a cross. Its a christian organization alright. By your logic al qaeda isn't a muslim organization. Just one made up of muslims.
    Actually, the symbol of Christianity is a crucifix.

    No, al Qaeda is definitely a Muslim terrorist group. Religious violence is their agenda. Where as with the Klowns, racial violence is their agenda.

    There's a difference, believe it, or not.
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  7. #107
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    No, the coming of Jesus is not the metaphor. The metaphor was about the inheritance part. The one with the money.
    No, you said the Old Testament was a "pure metaphor", that's what I was referring to. Check your post again. If the entire Old Testament is metaphorical, then so was the coming of Christ, which means Jesus was just another random hippie.

    hrist is God. he is the third part of what makes God as the Christian God.
    There is no Christian God without Jesus.
    No one ever said there is no Christian God without Jesus, that wasn't what I said, and it wasn't what we were debating. I said the Christian God is the same God who dictated the Old Testament, and therefore the same God who unleashed the plagues.

    Your money analogy is patently false. You just said Jesus is God. At best, you could claim it's like being bi polar and finding that your evil alter-ego robbed a bank, and then your "good" side works out what to do with the money, but it's still the same person.

    Edit: My bad, I re read your post and you're right, the money was the only thing you said was a metaphor. As I've already stated, it's an irrelevant and demonstrably false analogy. It's not an inheritance if you're the same person. It's also false because Jesus always says his father is greater than him, so to claim Jesus is "better" than Yahweh is to ignore the word of Jesus himself. He also said they are "one".
    Last edited by HumanBeing; 07-09-13 at 12:14 PM.
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  8. #108
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    No, the coming of Jesus is not the metaphor. The metaphor was about the inheritance part. The one with the money.

    Christ is God. he is the third part of what makes God as the Christian God.
    There is no Christian God without Jesus.

    I never said that the Old Testament is not the word of God. But it's the word of the jewish God. The other God. Not the Christian God. For it to be the word of the Christian God it needs to have Christ... which it didn't in the Old Testament. Get it? It's really not that hard.
    You are confused. Jesus was Jewish and believed in the Old Testament bible too. Christians believe he was the SON of the God in that bible.

  9. #109
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    You are confused. Jesus was Jewish and believed in the Old Testament bible too. Christians believe he was the SON of the God in that bible.
    Jesus was a Judean. there is no evidence of him being Jewish, as in, the adept of the judean faith. He didn't keep any of the jewish celebrations, he didn't hold the rabbi order in any high regard and there is no evidence of him ever being of the jewish religion.

    He was the founder of Christianity.

    Let me make it clear about what Jesus was in concern to his divinity and to clear the whole part as to why the Christian God is not the same God as in the Old testament in as simple terms as I possibly can. A simple cause and effect relationship.

    In order for there to be a Christian God, you need Christ. No Christ, no Christian God. Since Christ didn't exist till the New testament, anything that is in the Old Testament is something other than the Christian God. Got it? I can't make it any more simple than this. I really can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by HumanBeing View Post
    No, you said the Old Testament was a "pure metaphor", that's what I was referring to. Check your post again. If the entire Old Testament is metaphorical, then so was the coming of Christ, which means Jesus was just another random hippie.


    No one ever said there is no Christian God without Jesus, that wasn't what I said, and it wasn't what we were debating. I said the Christian God is the same God who dictated the Old Testament, and therefore the same God who unleashed the plagues.

    Your money analogy is patently false. You just said Jesus is God. At best, you could claim it's like being bi polar and finding that your evil alter-ego robbed a bank, and then your "good" side works out what to do with the money, but it's still the same person.

    Edit: My bad, I re read your post and you're right, the money was the only thing you said was a metaphor. As I've already stated, it's an irrelevant and demonstrably false analogy. It's not an inheritance if you're the same person. It's also false because Jesus always says his father is greater than him, so to claim Jesus is "better" than Yahweh is to ignore the word of Jesus himself. He also said they are "one".
    Ok. Let's check my post:

    "The Old testament is like the 5min intro into a movie which sets the stage of the world in which the story takes place. The New Testament is the rest of the movie which has the meaningful aspects in it. It is hence why all the stuff that happens in the Old Testament has but a inheritance relationship to Christianity, but holding Christianity responsible for it is stupid.
    It's like, if your father made a fortune and passed it on to you, you now have a fortune, but you do not have the merit of making that fortune with all the consequences of the actions needed to make the fortune.

    Of course, I by no means associate the Old Testament with any monetary value. it was just a pure metaphor."
    Good that you acknowledge that the money part was the metaphor. I shall give you the same reply. as I did your colleague in absurdity to respond to the second part. Read it above. It's the part with the causality relation.
    Last edited by Rainman05; 07-09-13 at 01:22 PM.

  10. #110
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    Re: What is most responsible for Christianity's failure in the West?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Jesus was a Judean. there is no evidence of him being Jewish, as in, the adept of the judean faith. He didn't keep any of the jewish celebrations, he didn't hold the rabbi order in any high regard and there is no evidence of him ever being of the jewish religion.

    He was the founder of Christianity.

    Let me make it clear about what Jesus was in concern to his divinity and to clear the whole part as to why the Christian God is not the same God as in the Old testament in as simple terms as I possibly can. A simple cause and effect relationship.

    In order for there to be a Christian God, you need Christ. No Christ, no Christian God. Since Christ didn't exist till the New testament, anything that is in the Old Testament is something other than the Christian God. Got it? I can't make it any more simple than this. I really can't.
    There is plenty of evidence that Jesus was born Jewish, because everybody was Jewish at the time he was preaching. To have the "son of God" you need the God of the old testament to be the Father. It can't get any simpler than that.
    Oh and Christ was not he founder of the Christian church since it happened after his demise. I believe Peter is considered the founder, hence St. Peters cathedral in the Vatican.

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