View Poll Results: Is Snowden a patriot?

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  • Absolutley! The people have the right to know!

    53 63.86%
  • No

    20 24.10%
  • NO WAY!

    10 12.05%
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Thread: Is Snowden a patriot?

  1. #91
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    Re: Is Snowden a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    You heard it here. The American people are the enemy.


    Snowden made public information that may be used to track terrorists by examining metadata. If they know this, they can change the pattern by which they communicate. Snowden's leak allows them to more confidently secure their communications against monitoring by the NSA. That's the logic for the argument that he helped Al Qaeda.

    This ties in very interestingly to Manning's case, and the verdict is, to me, a bit contradictory and I'm not sure what to make of it.

    The ruling found Manning innocent of aiding the enemy. But at the same time, he was found guilty under the Espionage Act, therefore making leaking to the press an illegal act.

    Additionally, this fascinating tid-bit was included, which would apply to this discussion.

    Manning was also found guilty of "wrongfully and wantonly" causing to be published on the internet intelligence belonging to the US, "having knowledge that intelligence published on the internet is accesible to the enemy". That guilty ruling could still have widest ramifications for news organisations working on investigations relating to US national security.
    By that fact, I suppose, it seems Snowden would not be happy with the verdict.
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  2. #92
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    Re: Is Snowden a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    I'm not an expert on American constitutional law, but I'm pretty sure that the US Constitution guarantees the civil right on privacy of correspondence, like all other constitutions of other civilized nations too.

    So the US government violated the Constitution. Snowden is a true patriot for making that known.

    Because a true patriot places the Constitution and the people's rights above the current government, and above a party and above a President. That's patriotism.

    It doesn't matter what contract Snowden had signed. If that contract was against the Constitution, it was as illegal as it gets in the first place.
    The crux of your argument is that the surveillance program is unconstitutional. But until something is found unconstitutional, or a similar law was found unconstitutional, we can consider it to be constitutional.

    This law has not been found unconstitutional. A lawsuit against the NSA by the Center for Constitutional Rights was dismissed by the 9th Circuit of Appeals, and they're requesting reconsideration. We'll see how that goes. Maybe they'll decide it is unconstitutional, but it doesn't appear likely.
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  3. #93
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    Re: Is Snowden a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    The crux of your argument is that the surveillance program is unconstitutional. But until something is found unconstitutional, or a similar law was found unconstitutional, we can consider it to be constitutional.

    This law has not been found unconstitutional. A lawsuit against the NSA by the Center for Constitutional Rights was dismissed by the 9th Circuit of Appeals, and they're requesting reconsideration. We'll see how that goes. Maybe they'll decide it is unconstitutional, but it doesn't appear likely.
    If wiretapping ALL people at random is not unconstitutional, your Constitution is worth ****.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  4. #94
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    Re: Is Snowden a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    If wiretapping ALL people at random is not unconstitutional, your Constitution is worth ****.
    Please, read more about what the NSA actually does before making impulsive statements. The NSA tracks metadata. Not conversations, and it's certainly not a wiretap program, but they track who you talk to, and how often you talk to them.

    A physical example would be for them to see you at a park talking to different people and making a note of that. They don't know what's being said, only that the two people are talking. Its important to note, at this stage, they don't even know who you are. But, if they decide you are a person of interest, they submit a request for a warrant to look into who you are, and, if they are interested in you, they seek permission for a wiretap.

    The courts have decided metadata is public information, that decision has been appealed and is heading to the Supreme Court, and we'll see what they say, which will most likely affirm the lower court's decision. I can provide the case name and briefing is requested.
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  5. #95
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    Re: Is Snowden a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    Please, read more about what the NSA actually does before making impulsive statements. The NSA tracks metadata. Not conversations, and it's certainly not a wiretap program, but they track who you talk to, and how often you talk to them.

    A physical example would be for them to see you at a park talking to different people and making a note of that. They don't know what's being said, only that the two people are talking. Its important to note, at this stage, they don't even know who you are. But, if they decide you are a person of interest, they submit a request for a warrant to look into who you are, and, if they are interested in you, they seek permission for a wiretap.

    The courts have decided metadata is public information, that decision has been appealed and is heading to the Supreme Court, and we'll see what they say, which will most likely affirm the lower court's decision. I can provide the case name and briefing is requested.
    I'm German, citizen of a very close ally of the US, and of a democratic republic. Snowden has made public that the NSA listened to millions of phone conversations in Germany, as well as tracking every bit of information posted online, including emails, not just of Germans, but of American citizens too.

    If that's not unconstitutional, your Constitution is worth a flying ****.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  6. #96
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    Re: Is Snowden a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    I'm German, citizen of a very close ally of the US, and of a democratic republic. Snowden has made public that the NSA listened to millions of phone conversations in Germany, as well as tracking every bit of information posted online, including emails, not just of Germans, but of American citizens too.
    I don't know about our what data we track in Germany, but I'm sorry to say that German citizens don't fall under the Constitution. But I don't think Berlin would admit that our surveillance program has probably helped them at some point or another. I'm not saying it has happened, but I think it's a possibility to consider. Because we are such close allies.

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    If that's not unconstitutional, your Constitution is worth a flying ****.
    Again, to examine information about American citizens, there is a process the NSA must go through. Obviously they've gone through the process more than once, and have done an in-depth examination of American citizens. But that process includes court approval.

    If you can't prove that the NSA bypassed the approval process (I know for a fact that you can't, because it is something I'm interested in myself), then the constitutionality remains intact at the time being.

    On a side note, I do think that the court process is the weak link in the chain. I have not been able to find information about the criteria the court holds a request to before granting it, and I do know they've granted above 90% of the 500 some odd requests made. But, there is a process for challenging the constitutionality of the program, and thus far, it is legal.

    Maybe you don't like it, but that doesn't diminish the program or the US Constitution in the slightest.
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  7. #97
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    Re: Is Snowden a patriot?

    I don't think that Snowden is relevant. He is not the issue. What matters is that the information he provided illustrates an illegal and highly unethical effort by the government to spy on us. I agree with the OP's point, but a discussion on Snowden is designed to make him the point of discussion rather than the information he leaked.
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  8. #98
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    Re: Is Snowden a patriot?

    The ones at fault are the morons who rule this country that thought that they could use thousands of people to do this and somehow it would remain secret. I suspect Al Qaeda knew about this long before the American Sheeple did.

    Snowden is a hero, not a traitor.

  9. #99
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    Re: Is Snowden a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post


    Snowden made public information that may be used to track terrorists by examining metadata. If they know this, they can change the pattern by which they communicate. Snowden's leak allows them to more confidently secure their communications against monitoring by the NSA. That's the logic for the argument that he helped Al Qaeda.

    This ties in very interestingly to Manning's case, and the verdict is, to me, a bit contradictory and I'm not sure what to make of it.

    The ruling found Manning innocent of aiding the enemy. But at the same time, he was found guilty under the Espionage Act, therefore making leaking to the press an illegal act.

    Additionally, this fascinating tid-bit was included, which would apply to this discussion.



    By that fact, I suppose, it seems Snowden would not be happy with the verdict.
    I'm pretty sure that terrorists know that their typical communication can easily be tapped. Revealing universal wiretapping is a serious offense and is in no way useful to stopping terrorism. Anytime these administrations get caught doing this stuff they always scream terrorism. It's a scam.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  10. #100
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    Re: Is Snowden a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I'm pretty sure that terrorists know that their typical communication can easily be tapped. Revealing universal wiretapping is a serious offense and is in no way useful to stopping terrorism. Anytime these administrations get caught doing this stuff they always scream terrorism. It's a scam.
    There is a difference between knowing they can be tapped, and on what basis they may be tapped.

    The "universal wiretapping" thing is a great strawman though. You should definitely stick to that, no one will notice the lack of foundation.
    Veni. Vidi. Vici.
    -Gaius Julius Caesar
    The Only Thing to Fear is Fear Itself.
    -Franklin Delano Roosevelt

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