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Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the states

Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the states

  • Yes

    Votes: 25 41.0%

  • No

    Votes: 33 54.1%

  • Not sure

    Votes: 3 4.9%
  • Total voters
    61
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Redress said:
I am not sure why this is hard for you but: the founders are dead. What they wanted is mostly irrelevant. We have to think for ourselves and figure these things out. I think the founders would be appalled at the thought that we had to blindly do what people long dead and not actually privy to the situation said. The founders did not blindly accept much, why do you?
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why is it hard for you, we are discussing why the 17th should be repealed, and i stated my case.

becuase it moves us away from democracy which is a evil form of government, and back to republican government, of divide power, and a government which has little faction / special interest, and a voice for states in our government again.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

A 2010 aberration in mid-term voting leads to at least a 2-year aberration in 2012 state legislatures that are now deeply ingrained on the Federal and State level with gerry-mandering. You've seen that the current count in the Senate would be 51--49 Repubs if you go back to 2008 and the last three votes of the states legislatures.
ernst barkmann said:
no i dont believe the issue is in court.....

state legislators are elected by the people, therefore if a democrat or repub house is elected, the people must want that party in power of that state..(my personal view is,we should not have parties as g. Washington stated)

state legislature appoints the senator, which means they have to vote, who ever get the most is appointed, are you against that?

since also when the senator is appointed, they direct his vote, and can remove him from office and replace him.

there direction of his vote serves to protect the states from the inherent powers of the federal government to increase its those powers more.

the federal government was given 18 duties with states the rest, anytime the feds create a new power for themselves, they are taking away power from the states. ..this one of the reason states had representation in out government thru the senate to prevent this
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Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

NIMBY said:
A 2010 aberration in mid-term voting leads to at least a 2-year aberration in 2012 state legislatures that are now deeply ingrained on the Federal and State level with gerry-mandering. You've seen that the current count in the Senate would be 51--49 Repubs if you go back to 2008 and the last three votes of the states legislatures.
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as i stated before, if this is such a hot issue, then why do not the state create a constitutional amendment to prevent what the problems you are explaining to me........it must not be a hot button issue of the state then.

but it does noting to the 17th..the 17th is about state voice in government, and protecting themselves from federal overreach of powers.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

For the same reason that those who would vote for Proposition 8 in California will not vote for a Republican senator right now. Heavy lobbying from out-of-state, in this case the Mormon church. Btw, I like their commission style of drawing CD lines. Everyone was angry at first. I do not believe we should have 50 different ways to do a remap, thus 50 ways to elect a Senator if the 17th was repealed.
ernst barkmann said:
as i stated before, if this is such a hot issue, then why do not the state create a constitutional amendment to prevent what the problems you are explaining to me........it must not be a hot button issue of the state then.

but it does noting to the 17th..the 17th is about state voice in government, and protecting themselves from federal overreach of powers.
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Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Do you really want our Senate? We are paying them a lot of money and they don't even show up for work and they scam us for money. If they are not elected there is nothing to keep them accountable.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

ernst barkmann said:
why is it hard for you, we are discussing why the 17th should be repealed, and i stated my case.

becuase it moves us away from democracy which is a evil form of government, and back to republican government, of divide power, and a government which has little faction / special interest, and a voice for states in our government again.
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States do have a voice in our government. That is what the senate does. That senators are picked by the people directly instead of by the people the people elect at the state does not change the purpose and function of those senators, and as such, your argument falls apart.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

The 16th, 17th, and 18th were all tremendous mistakes, and we're only 1 for 3 on the repeal.

It was a incomprehensibly stupid, needless change.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Redress said:
States do have a voice in our government. That is what the senate does. That senators are picked by the people directly instead of by the people the people elect at the state does not change the purpose and function of those senators, and as such, your argument falls apart.
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wrong, the senators in the senate do not care a lick about the state or its interal problems........... they only pander to the people, the ones that elect them.

that is why the senate no longer has a voice, .


to give you an example

under obamacare it was passed by the senate, ...however if the 17 th amendment to our Constitution was not there it would never have passed ...why?

becuase 26 states sued over it...26 x 2 is 52 senators who would have voted against it...becuase there state legislators who have directed them too!
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

ernst barkmann said:
wrong, the senators in the senate do not care a lick about the state or its interal problems........... they only pander to the people, the ones that elect them.

that is why the senate no longer has a voice, .


to give you an example

under obamacare it was passed by the senate, ...however if the 17 th amendment to our Constitution was not there it would never have passed ...why?

becuase 26 states sued over it...26 x 2 is 52 senators who would have voted against it...becuase there state legislators who have directed them too!
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Wait, what? Serving their state is pandering now? Do youy realize how stupid that sounds?
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Redress said:
Wait, what? Serving their state is pandering now? Do youy realize how stupid that sounds?
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senators do not go back to the state and look at the concerns of the legislature, , they go back and talk to the voters who voted for them in ...........town hall meetings.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

ernst barkmann said:
senators do not go back to the state and look at the concerns of the legislature, , they go back and talk to the voters who voted for them in ...........town hall meetings.
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Yes, they work for the state, so going back and talking to those who make up the state is appropriate.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Today's House only works a 126-day year. They need a 3rd year to do what they used to do, especially working Tuesday--Thursday and then jet-setting around to be bought at fund-raisers.
0bserver92 said:
Do you really want our Senate? We are paying them a lot of money and they don't even show up for work and they scam us for money. If they are not elected there is nothing to keep them accountable.
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Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Redress said:
Yes, they work for the state, so going back and talking to those who make up the state is appropriate.
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before the 17th , senators were representatives of the state... not the people....now they are representatives of the people, just like the house, just on the large scale, and they dont address there stats legislators becuase they no longer control them, and direct there vote.

both parts of congress being in the people hands is democracy, the only thing left of republican government is the electoral college, and and when that is wrong, we will be more like Europe.:(
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Infrastructure would build itself without the 16th and states would not gerry-mander without the 17th. This is why we have 81% Dem CD's in Pennsylvania but only 55% ones that are Repub. Hence, the Repub move to splitting electoral votes.
JayDubya said:
The 16th, 17th, and 18th were all tremendous mistakes, and we're only 1 for 3 on the repeal.

It was a incomprehensibly stupid, needless change.
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Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

NIMBY said:
Today's House only works a 126-day year. They need a 3rd year to do what they used to do, especially working Tuesday--Thursday and then jet-setting around to be bought at fund-raisers.
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in reading the constitution , it states the congress needs to meet at least once a year.

they didn't envision a congress being in session so long as today.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

ernst barkmann said:
before the 17th , senators were representatives of the state... not the people....now they are representatives of the people, just like the house, just on the large scale, and they dont address there stats legislators becuase they no longer control them, and direct there vote.

both parts of congress being in the people hands is democracy, the only thing left of republican government is the electoral college, and and when that is wrong, we will be more like Europe.:(
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It is not before the 17th is it? I explained the history for you earlier, repeating it back to me is kinda silly.

"The states" are the people within the states.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Redress said:
It is not before the 17th is it? I explained the history for you earlier, repeating it back to me is kinda silly.

"The states" are the people within the states.
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sorry no they are not.

my example of obamacare, prove that's.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

ernst barkmann said:
sorry no they are not.

my example of obamacare, prove that's.
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So you want to change the constitution because people voted in a way you did not like? This is all about you can't win elections, so you want to stack the deck...
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

as far as l know USA was founded on liberties ,not on restrictions

democracy for all..
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Redress said:
So you want to change the constitution because people voted in a way you did not like? This is all about you can't win elections, so you want to stack the deck...
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no this is about power back to the state legislatures to stop the over reach of federal power.

i going to give you some help here, if you read federalist 63 you will see why the senate is for representation of the states.

the house by being directly elected by the people, ........is collectivist in its nature

now i know that throws a red flag at you becuase...... liberals , are collectivist,/ socialist.minded, so anything that put the brakes on collectivism, you are going to be against.

Madison in 63 states clearly.. the senate is there in the hands of the states to stop the collective capacity of the people in the house from trying pass collectivist laws, BUT becuase they senate is not collectivist by nature, becuase it under the constitution has no power to appropriate money to create programs, or dispense handouts to citizens.

senate by being in states hands, welfare and federal programs, as we know them today would not exist.....becuase the senate would not have passed them.

"The true distinction between these and the American governments, lies in the total exclusion of the people, in their collective capacity, from any share in the latter, and not in the total exclusion of the representatives of the people from the administration of the former-- federalist 63

Madison is saying the people can vote collectedly, however collectivist legislation is barred because states control the senate.
 
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Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Medusa said:
as far as l know USA was founded on liberties ,not on restrictions

democracy for all..
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democracy is the most vile form of government --James Madison father of the u.s. constitution.

america was created with republican government, not democratic government
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

As stated by others tonight, they could not have envisioned today's world with its complexities and tech issues. I believe the 17th would have been ratified in 1913 especially knowing how partisan things are today. Could they imagine a GOP Congress, IMO hurting the Country, let's say the economy in Dem regions or with Dem constituents or even their own, just to get at the Dems?
ernst barkmann said:
in reading the constitution , it states the congress needs to meet at least once a year.

they didn't envision a congress being in session so long as today.
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Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

ernst barkmann said:
democracy is the most vile form of government --James Madison father of the u.s. constitution.

america was created with republican government, not democratic government
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it depends on what kind of democracy he refers to

because democracy is usually a two faced mask.


for instance your fathers wanted usa to turn to an imperialist world power ?

l dont think so because thats why they wanted to gain their indepedence from UK
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

NIMBY said:
As stated by others tonight, they could not have envisioned today's world with its complexities and tech issues. I believe the 17th would have been ratified in 1913 especially knowing how partisan things are today. Could they imagine a GOP Congress, IMO hurting the Country, let's say the economy in Dem regions or with Dem constituents or even their own, just to get at the Dems?
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the problem is this, we do live in a more complex world, anyone will tell you that, however by having a senate in state hands, government must go thru the constitutional amendment process to get more powers, becuase under the current system, the federal government just create new powers for themselves as they take away state powers.

this is why the 17th needed to be repealed becuase the powers of the states are being lost.

the federal government only has 18 duties under our constitution, all other powers are the states, that's why we have a separation of powers.

with the 17th the feds have stepped into state powers, and violating the Constitution.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Medusa said:
it depends on what kind of democracy he refers to

because democracy is usually a two faced mask.
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our founders hated democracy be it direct or representative, by people will not reading the founders and find this for themselves,...they let other people tell them what our nation is, and its wrong.

america started to be called a democracy around 1890's since then its what people believe, however even or own government of the past states its not a democracy in government books

no the founders did not want america turned into an imperialist power, even government books from our military of the past say america is not suppose to be a military meddling power, it supposed to stay out of other government business, but it does not becuase the government is violating our constitution
 
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