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Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the states

Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the states

  • Yes

    Votes: 25 41.0%

  • No

    Votes: 33 54.1%

  • Not sure

    Votes: 3 4.9%
  • Total voters
    61
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

radcen said:
Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the states?
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In a perfect world yes, but not right now when the state legislature districts are often even more gerrymandered than the House district. I do think having the power returned to the states would be a good thing, but I wouldn't want one party to control both houses of Congress for a decade just because they had a good year at the end of the last one.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

ernst barkmann said:
you will find if you look at history after the 17th amendment you get long term senators, like Robert Byrd.

before the 17th senators served short terms becuase legislatures changed them frequently.

do you not question why our founders created our constitution as a mixed one, and the separation of powers.

republican government divides power so special interest/ faction cannot rule our government

democracy concentrates power, and this allows special interest/ faction to grow and control our government.

i will give you federalist papers quotes to show you what i mean.

federalist 10 from Madison, where is states democratic government is very factious and the founders created republican government which is less factious.

"The other point of difference is, the greater number of citizens and extent of territory which may be brought within the compass of republican than of democratic government; and it is this circumstance principally which renders factious combinations less to be dreaded in the former than in the latter"


federalist 47 from Madison, where he states if you give a person, few or group, or all the power to the people total power they will become tyrannical......

"The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, selfappointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny"

here is Madison again in federalist 63, saying that the senate is a voice of the states to stop any collectivist activity of the people, becuase if you give people all the power they will become collective by nature and be tyrannical.

"The true distinction between these and the American governments, lies in the total exclusion of the people, in their collective capacity, from any share in the latter, and not in the total exclusion of the representatives of the people from the administration of the former"
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It was reformists and popularists that brought about the 17th ammendment, because the senate had become a aristocratic institute. If you want to blame anyone blame William Jennings Bryan .
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Unitedwestand13 said:
It was reformists and popularists that brought about the 17th ammendment, because the senate had become a aristocratic institute. If you want to blame anyone blame William Jennings Bryan .
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by having the 17th amendment to our constitution it has moved us closer to democracy, expect for the electoral collage, once that is gone we will be a democracy for sure!

Madison a great thinker says directly that democratic government is very factious...and it is.......and we the american people COMPLAIN ABOUT IT....WHY?......when we call for more democracy, if you want democracy, then you have to take the faction the special interest that goes along with it that controls our government.

its silly to complain about government ......and then promote , what is causing the problem
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

I'm a hardhead and think that as long as we keep electing people to office that love money, and most of our Senators and Congressmen of both sexes are millionaires, then we will be working with flawed materials and the result will be what we have, flawed gov't. Of money, by money, for the money. Screw a bunch of voters. What the hell does one vote buy. Nuttin' honey. Now try a million dollars and see how many votes you can buy.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

ernst barkmann said:
by having the 17th amendment to our constitution it has moved us closer to democracy, expect for the electoral collage, once that is gone we will be a democracy for sure!

Madison a great thinker says directly that democratic government is very factious...and it is.......and we the american people COMPLAIN ABOUT IT....WHY?......when we call for more democracy, if you want democracy, then you have to take the faction the special interest that goes along with it that controls our government.

its silly to complain about government ......and then promote , what is causing the problem
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Trying to bring back maddisons ideal government without accounting for all the changes that has happened since Madison's era is naive.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

ernst barkmann said:
by having the 17th amendment to our constitution it has moved us closer to democracy, expect for the electoral collage, once that is gone we will be a democracy for sure!

Madison a great thinker says directly that democratic government is very factious...and it is.......and we the american people COMPLAIN ABOUT IT....WHY?......when we call for more democracy, if you want democracy, then you have to take the faction the special interest that goes along with it that controls our government.

its silly to complain about government ......and then promote , what is causing the problem
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With the "winner take all" rules for selecting members of the Electoral College, we are perilously close to democracy in Presidential elections. It's why the House is controlled by one party and the executive branch by another...
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

AlabamaPaul said:
With the "winner take all" rules for selecting members of the Electoral College, we are perilously close to democracy in Presidential elections. It's why the House is controlled by one party and the executive branch by another...
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another reason is becuase the federal government is outside the constitution this allows government to buy votes of the people by promising them things...healthcare, welfare, and other laws which plays to the people
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

DaveFagan said:
I'm a hardhead and think that as long as we keep electing people to office that love money, and most of our Senators and Congressmen of both sexes are millionaires, then we will be working with flawed materials and the result will be what we have, flawed gov't. Of money, by money, for the money. Screw a bunch of voters. What the hell does one vote buy. Nuttin' honey. Now try a million dollars and see how many votes you can buy.
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you are correct and this relates to faction or special interest, which democracy encourages.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Unitedwestand13 said:
Trying to bring back maddisons ideal government without accounting for all the changes that has happened since Madison's era is naive.
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you are discounting republican government has if you have lived under it, and no one has, it ended in 1913 officially.

america lived under it for over 100 years, and we came from nothing on the world stage, to a power to revel other nations, who had been around for centuries.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

If you think maddisons ideal form of government is immune to the corruption of today's politics you are gravely mistaken.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

ernst barkmann said:
you are discounting republican government has if you have lived under it, and no one has, it ended in 1913 officially.

america lived under it for over 100 years, and we came from nothing on the world stage, to a power to revel other nations, who had been around for centuries.
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Is 1913 the year populism won out over the status quo
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Unitedwestand13 said:
If you think maddisons ideal form of government is immune to the corruption of today's politics you are gravely mistaken.
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i did not say that, i said that Republican government is less factious....as Madison in #10 states.

you are never going to totally get rid of faction..but why would everyone want to promote a type of government Madison states is very factious?
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Unitedwestand13 said:
Is 1913 the year populism won out over the status quo
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populist government is democracy and the founders hated it, be it representative or direct.

it is destroying us., and will continue to do so.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

ernst barkmann said:
populist government is democracy and the founders hated it, be it representative or direct.

it is destroying us., and will continue to do so.
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Funny how the founding fathers hate the notion of the people holding power.

There is a reason why some people consider the champion of the populist movement, Wisconsin senator Robert la Follette sr., to be one of America's most influential senators.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Unitedwestand13 said:
Funny how the founding fathers hate the notion of the people holding power.

There is a reason why some people consider the champion of the populist movement, Wisconsin senator Robert la Follette sr., to be one of America's most influential senators.
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they are not against people holding power, people hold power in the house.

and people hold power over the legislature who appoint senators, this gives people direct and indirect power.

again if you give people all direct power they will become tyrannical....history proves that.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

ernst barkmann said:
they are not against people holding power, people hold power in the house.

and people hold power over the legislature who appoint senators, this gives people direct and indirect power.

again if you give people all direct power they will become tyrannical....history proves that.
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Yet somehow maddisons ideal government became corrupted by the influence of big business.

How could people call themselves represented by a state that was literally bought by the railroads and oil monopolys.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Unitedwestand13 said:
Yet somehow maddisons ideal government became corrupted by the influence of big business.

How could people call themselves represented by a state that was literally bought by the railroads and oil monopolys.
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It's much easier to control those abuses on a State level rather than a federal one...
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Unitedwestand13 said:
Funny how the founding fathers hate the notion of the people holding power.
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:doh If that were the case, they wouldn't have set up the House to be popularly elected. They were in a position to set up pretty much whatever they wanted, and they chose a balance of power.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

ernst barkmann said:
you really need to read the founding documents and the federalist papers...
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More than likely I know them better than you. Do not try and educate those who know more.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

AlabamaPaul said:
It's much easier to control those abuses on a State level rather than a federal one...
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There once was a time that the Colorado fuel and iron corperation ( a branch of standard oil) had complete influence over state polotics that they could call in state troopers as their personal foot soliders in order to put down strikes like this one in ludlow

Ludlow Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Unitedwestand13 said:
There once was a time that the Colorado fuel and iron corperation ( a branch of standard oil) had complete influence over state polotics that they could call in state troopers as their personal foot soliders in order to put down strikes like this one in ludlow

Ludlow Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Yes, and Alabama could abuse its powers as well, but you're not making a case for central power. In fact, you're arguing against it...
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Unitedwestand13 said:
Yet somehow maddisons ideal government became corrupted by the influence of big business.

How could people call themselves represented by a state that was literally bought by the railroads and oil monopolys.
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and government is doing some of those actions violated rights of the people.

from 1787 to the begging of the 20th century america grew expanded, and became wealthy, since the 20th century america has gone into decline, and government has expanded, and become so corrupt it does not listen to the people and takes powers from the states.

i could talk and talk about this all, day, becuase it is something i have focused my attention on when i started reading the founders, want they created, republican government and why.

people by nature are factious and self serving, and always will be Madison also says this, america will fall becuase people are deluded into thinking democracy is good.

even our own government stated in 1928 through army training manuals America is not a democracy, and we are not to be a nation of military conquest or nation meddling.

we came far in such a short time, now we are losing what we have becuase of corruption, and people complain, about it....................but say give me more democracy.

i cant convey what the founders say to have the meaning they did, i always ask that people read the constitution the Federalist papers, and letters, to get what out founders created, and dont listen to judges, news, politicians who fool the people with untruths.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

radcen said:
Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the states?
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I'd like it to be. But you have to put in certain oversight. The reason it was taken away was that partisan disputes in State government often led to a State not seating a senator for years. That couldn't be allowed.
 
Re: Should the choosing of Senators be taken from the people and given back to the st

Unitedwestand13 said:
I cannot understand why people would want to give up the power to directly elect senators?
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Because we have the House and the Senate is supposed to be for the States. Otherwise, you just have 2 popular houses and there's no reason to have 2 separate ones. It was part of a check and balance on government.
 
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