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Thread: Conservatives: is paganism part of the Western tradition you want to conserve?

  1. #11
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    Re: Conservatives: is paganism part of the Western tradition you want to conserve?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grand Mal View Post
    And you deny being pagan so, according to post #2, you're not really a conservative! Must be nice to get out of that closet, huh?
    Or perhaps post #2 fails to give a rational definition of conservatism. In fact, the criteria being there attached to conservatism rather obviously have nothing whatsoever to do with any common understanding of what it means to be conservative. Conservatism has nothing to do with religion, physique, or sexual dysfunction.

    In fact, looking over this thread as the whole into which it has so far shaped itself; I have to say that the OPs purpose is not to make any honest attempt to define conservatism; but to express a rather odd form of bigotry against conservatism; and you seem to be in league with the OP on this effort.

    One almost has to wonder if both you and the OP are merely engaging in psychological projection here. It is certainly very common, in close quarters with one particular issue on which the two sides tend to sharply differ, for those on the far wrong side to project their own sexual inadequacies and dysfunctions on those of the far right side. Perhaps something similar is happening here.
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  2. #12
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    Re: Conservatives: is paganism part of the Western tradition you want to conserve?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    Or perhaps post #2 fails to give a rational definition of conservatism. In fact, the criteria being there attached to conservatism rather obviously have nothing whatsoever to do with any common understanding of what it means to be conservative. Conservatism has nothing to do with religion, physique, or sexual dysfunction.

    In fact, looking over this thread as the whole into which it has so far shaped itself; I have to say that the OPs purpose is not to make any honest attempt to define conservatism; but to express a rather odd form of bigotry against conservatism; and you seem to be in league with the OP on this effort.

    One almost has to wonder if both you and the OP are merely engaging in psychological projection here. It is certainly very common, in close quarters with one particular issue on which the two sides tend to sharply differ, for those on the far wrong side to project their own sexual inadequacies and dysfunctions on those of the far right side. Perhaps something similar is happening here.
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  3. #13
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    Re: Conservatives: is paganism part of the Western tradition you want to conserve?

    I am an atheist Conservative. I voted "no"-- I do not see anything to gain by
    promoting yet another religious cult. We already have too many.

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    I was reading a book on the history of rightist movements between the World Wars and was taken aback by just how pagan-influenced they were. I don't merely refer here to the overrated influence of Aryan theosophy on early Nazism, but to non-fascist movements like Ernst Jünger's Revolutionary Conservative Movement and the French New Right. These movements both consciously rejected Christianity in favor of a heavily paganized worldview - paganism being taken by them as the authentic European tradition, ans Christianity an alien imposition on Western man.

    Then I look around and wonder: why is there none of this on the Right today?
    There is none of this on the right today because it has never been part of mainstream
    Western Conservative thought.

    As far as I know there never was any of this on the Right except for the German fascist
    Right and the more recent tiny French Nouvelle Droite fringe (how many votes have they
    been getting?). Maybe there have been a few others, very few and very small; none
    have ever made an impact except the Nazis.

  4. #14
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    Re: Conservatives: is paganism part of the Western tradition you want to conserve?

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Who regards paganism as part of "Western tradition"?
    Well, to start with, many books, musics, and arts in the Western canon either incorporate Greek/Norse mythology or were influenced by them.

    Plus a lot of Catholic holidays and rituals are historically Pagan in origin.

    Generally speaking, transitions from Paganism to Christianity are considered to hallmarks of cultural evolution and an important part of our historical identity, so Paganism would be part of the traiditon based on the transformation away from it alone.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 06-28-13 at 01:06 PM.
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    Re: Conservatives: is paganism part of the Western tradition you want to conserve?

    European culture gave up the horse and buggy in favor of the automobile. So too, it gave up paganism for monotheism.

    One might reasonably argue that society needs to move to atheism. Many gods to one god to no gods. No reasonable person would argue that we should regress.
    The morality of abortion is not a religious belief, any more than the morality of slavery, apartheid, rape, larceny, murder or arson is a religious belief. These are norms of the natural law of mankind and can be legislated even in a completely religionless society.

  6. #16
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    Re: Conservatives: is paganism part of the Western tradition you want to conserve?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Well, to start with, many books, musics, and arts in the Western canon either incorporate Greek/Norse mythology or were influenced by them.

    Plus a lot of Catholic holidays and rituals are historically Pagan in origin.

    Generally speaking, transitions from Paganism to Christianity are considered to hallmarks of cultural evolution and an important part of our historical identity, so Paganism would be part of the traiditon based on the transformation away from it alone.
    OP has concerns only the political influence of paganism.

    Also, what holidays and rituals are pagan in origin?

    Merely adopting the timing does not count: Easter is not pagan in origin, although
    the date it is celebrated may be calculated according to some pagan practice.

  7. #17
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    Re: Conservatives: is paganism part of the Western tradition you want to conserve?

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Who regards paganism as part of "Western tradition"?
    It isn't.
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  8. #18
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    Re: Conservatives: is paganism part of the Western tradition you want to conserve?

    OP has concerns only the political influence of paganism.
    No it doesn't. It asked whether paganism is a part of the Western tradition that should be conserved at a cultural level. Like any other goal of cultural conservatism, politics is a tool to achieve that outcome.

    Also, what holidays and rituals are pagan in origin?

    Merely adopting the timing does not count: Easter is not pagan in origin, although
    the date it is celebrated may be calculated according to some pagan practice.
    ... I feel no compulsion whatsoever to agree to that very personal condition. Substitute out the theoretical justification and the social functions of the holiday are still broadly similar.

    In the case of any variation of New Years, an opportunity to assemble, renew the social connections that keep communities and families together, and collectively and individually examine the achievements of the year while using that understanding to develop goals for the next year.

    You can say that New Years is an appropriate time for that because of Jesus's birth and (therefore) a period of significance for the human race that can be used for personal reflection, but from a practical and economic perspective it preserves an institution of a Pagan culture on terms that are largely agreeable to former Pagans because it puts their social and family organization to no inconvenience by changing their religion.

    The same thing applies to innumerable Latin American holidays where individuals of amazing virtue and spiritual prowess in Native American tradition suddenly became saints.

    Note - also Halloween stuck around even when it had no real theoretical justification in a Christian context.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 06-28-13 at 03:43 PM.
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    Re: Conservatives: is paganism part of the Western tradition you want to conserve?

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    It isn't.
    And yet today is Friday (Frigg's Day).
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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    Re: Conservatives: is paganism part of the Western tradition you want to conserve?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    And yet today is Friday (Frigg's Day).
    And yet America still has it's own culture that is separate from ancient Europe.
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