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Is Homosexuality A Choice?

Is Homosexuality A Choice?

  • Yes

    Votes: 33 15.9%
  • No

    Votes: 136 65.7%
  • Maybe/Don't Know

    Votes: 38 18.4%

  • Total voters
    207
So what? Finding someone attractive is different than being attracted to them. And even if that is what she meant, then she may be lesbian or she may be bi, assuming she is being honest.

I don't think there is a difference in this case. She found her attractive enough to hookup with her. That's not the same as being attracted? Again, you make assertions (i'm sounding like You now) that support your beliefs. Of course she couldn't have changed her attraction, she must be lesbian or bi.
 
Sorry I've got my hands full here- cooking dinner, feeding the baby, making sure the 6 yr old is busy and carrying out my wife's instructions.

I disagree that there is a difference b/w like and attraction. i think the processes that occur when I decide I like coffee or my mother-in-law are the same as those that occur when i decide I like gay sex.

The first sentence is post 378 should be the answer to both of our assertions.

Obviously you want evidence. This is your trump card. If I can't play a more powerful card, then you win. Right? I have already described how exposure over time can lead to attraction where initially none was present. --in terms of coffee, movies and fat girls. I think it also applies to sexual attraction. If there really and truly was absolutely, positively no stigma Ever! regarding homosexuality, then I think we'd all be close friends.
Liking gay sex isn't attraction, so that point is irrelevant. You can like gay sex and be straight.

Yes, I want evidence. The assertions you are making require more than just your opinion.
 
Liking gay sex isn't attraction, so that point is irrelevant. You can like gay sex and be straight.

Yes, I want evidence. The assertions you are making require more than just your opinion.

But in the hypothetical, the co-ed said "I find her attractive." How was the co-ed supposed to know at that time that when the semester ended she'd be back to guys? As far as she knew at the time, lesbianism was the course of her life.

You don't have evidence either ( I can't believe I have to resort to that statement. I apologize for being petty.) Like I said, the first sentence in 378 answers both our assertions. Or do you know something the APA does not?
 
I don't think there is a difference in this case. She found her attractive enough to hookup with her. That's not the same as being attracted? Again, you make assertions (i'm sounding like You now) that support your beliefs. Of course she couldn't have changed her attraction, she must be lesbian or bi.
I find certain women attractive, despite not being attracted to them. You can recognize that people are attractive without being attracted to them. Now what you are saying is that this girl is attracted to women. In that case she is lesbian or bi, in line with what I am saying. She could also have sex with other women and not be attracted to them. The point is she said she was attracted to them and we are assuming she is being honest.

That doesn't prove she chose those attractions, she just chose to act on them.
 
I find certain women attractive, despite not being attracted to them. You can recognize that people are attractive without being attracted to them. Now what you are saying is that this girl is attracted to women. In that case she is lesbian or bi, in line with what I am saying. She could also have sex with other women and not be attracted to them. The point is she said she was attracted to them and we are assuming she is being honest.

That doesn't prove she chose those attractions, she just chose to act on them.

Well our disagreement is focused on whether we can choose our attractions. I say we can choose to pay attention to something, to think about it in a certain light (to think about having sex with it and spending the rest of our lives with it fulfilled, for example) and that those thoughts increase attraction from 0 to whatever.

In the previous semester, Mary sat right next to our honest co-ed and no spark occurred. Of course, I'm adding to (altering perhaps you would say) the hypothetical but that shouldn't matter b/c the addition to it that i'm making doesn't make it less likely to occur in real life. in my opinion.
 
Liking gay sex isn't attraction, so that point is irrelevant. You can like gay sex and be straight.

Yes, I want evidence. The assertions you are making require more than just your opinion.

If you like gay sex, you must be attracted to it.
 
Ill pass on that amazing though that you would even be willing to search that **** out
not to long ago homosexuality was just as taboo and socially shunned
 
As the years go on the people who answer "Yes" to this question will continue to dwindle. I'm not overly concerned, the onslaught of time, knowledge, and new generations is rapidly eroding positions and opinions on this. By the end of the century it will be relegated to a religious fringe if at all.
 
As the years go on the people who answer "Yes" to this question will continue to dwindle. I'm not overly concerned, the onslaught of time, knowledge, and new generations is rapidly eroding positions and opinions on this. By the end of the century it will be relegated to a religious fringe if at all.

The intelligent and honest answer would be "I don't know" since there is no hard evidence one way or another.
 
Also there plenty of behaviors for which there are no identifiable genetic markets at present, and there may not be such a direct gene or marker. This does not mean the behavior is not naturalistic in origin. The prevailing theory as I recall for the biological origins of homosexuality are multi-causal but revolve around the neurochemical balance of the brain and gene passed down matrilineally relating to female fecundity.
 
The intelligent and honest answer would be "I don't know" since there is no hard evidence one way or another.

The evidence in favor of a naturalistic origin for homosexuality in the majority of humans whom are homosexual is nigh overwhelming. That we have only begun to plumb the brain and that the field of neurobiology is still in it's nascent stages is no reason to foist choice as a religious excuse for this question---there is no evidence for it. Are the roots of homosexuality likely multi-causal and deeply fascinating? Yes, just like with so many human behaviors and traits! But pretending that we haven't ruled out 'choice' as a general cause is ridiculous.

I'll post what I had in another thread:

There are in fact plenty of theories and proposed explanations, and we are learning more every day due to advances in genetics and evolutionary biology. I'll list a few of the existing theories, bearing in mind these are short summaries:

1. The most prominent genetically based theory that exists today comes from research conducted earlier this year which gathered some evidence indicating that homosexuality may be related to a gene passed down matrilineally which relates to female fecundity and as a result may only have a tangential relationship as it increases the reproductive value of females by making them more attractive to males and relaxed to increase child bearing potential. It is a mistake to assume that selection pressures always produce reasoned or 'good' results, they are often completely unrelated to the gene that causes it. In this case the hypothesis is that it is an unanticipated balancing act of evolution, a common theme.

Factors Associated with Higher Fecundity in Female Maternal Relatives of Homosexual Men - Camperio Ciani - 2012 - The Journal of Sexual Medicine - Wiley Online Library
Male Homosexuality Can Be Explained Through A Specific Model Of Darwinian Evolution, Study Shows

2. Another common theory relates to pre-natal hormones and the impact that this has on human sexuality, as observed in both humans and test subjects like Rhesus Monkey's. In essence the idea being that in a small but predictable portion of the population (2-3%) differing hormonal balances affect the development of the fetal brain and contribute to the development of homosexuality. So the presence or absence of certain levels of testosterone, androgens, etc. This may or may not be related to the genetic argument made above.

Homosexuality and Biology - Chandler Burr - The Atlantic (a section discusses thus)

3. It may also have its relationship in several hypothesized evolutionary advantages that include anything from kin selection to advantages in actually acquiring a mate. For example a common theme in the animal world is observing animals that engage in homosexual behavior (usually among animals that have relatively exclusive sexual patterns) who will then in turn in the absence of other males mate with a female. Termed popularly the 'sneaky ****er' rule by some evolutionary biologists it is the idea that males who fall on some spectrum of homosexuality can evade their more aggressive male contenders who will dismiss them as rivals and instead will mate when the other males are away. This allowed homosexuality to perpetuate.

These are only a few theories mind you, but there is reams of literature on the subject and it is an emerging field with new discoveries and revelations constantly coming to the fore.

Edit: Also Epigenetics is probably pretty important alongside regular genetic reasons. It is widely believed that there is multiple biological causality for homosexuality and that it is what helps result in the spectrum we see.
 
But in the hypothetical, the co-ed said "I find her attractive." How was the co-ed supposed to know at that time that when the semester ended she'd be back to guys? As far as she knew at the time, lesbianism was the course of her life.

You don't have evidence either ( I can't believe I have to resort to that statement. I apologize for being petty.) Like I said, the first sentence in 378 answers both our assertions. Or do you know something the APA does not?
Well if she said she was attracted to both girls and guys, then obviously she is bi. Your scenario is silly, and can never prove anything or even serve as a logical tool.

Reading more than the first sentence of that posts suggests that homosexuality is not a choice. Again, do you have any studies that suggest it is a choice? I'm not asking for a definitive conclusive answer to the question, as your strawman keeps suggesting. I am just asking for any shred of evidence to back up your claim. You still have none.
 
Well our disagreement is focused on whether we can choose our attractions. I say we can choose to pay attention to something, to think about it in a certain light (to think about having sex with it and spending the rest of our lives with it fulfilled, for example) and that those thoughts increase attraction from 0 to whatever.

In the previous semester, Mary sat right next to our honest co-ed and no spark occurred. Of course, I'm adding to (altering perhaps you would say) the hypothetical but that shouldn't matter b/c the addition to it that i'm making doesn't make it less likely to occur in real life. in my opinion.
You don't have to be attracted to someone to be in a relationship with them, as countless homosexuals who have entered straight relationships will tell you. So your hypothetical is useless. Show me a real world and reliable example of someone choosing who they are attracted to. Meaning a straight man choosing to be attracted to men, or a gay man choosing to be attracted to women.
 
If you like gay sex, you must be attracted to it.
If you like gay sex, you are not necessarily gay. Having gay sex does not mean you are gay. Period.

If in the next few posts you don't offer any actual evidence of your baseless opinions, I will just end this conversation and accept your failure to provide evidence as resignation.
 
To be clear, are you either a psychiatrist or psychologist? Or are you saying that you took some psychology courses in college while pursuing a different degree?

I'm not asking for "credentials" I am simply trying to determine if my question should be "why do you disagree with your peers?" or "what makes you think the majority of trained professionals in both fields are wrong?"


I'm neither a Psychologist nor a Psychiatrist. I did take all the Psychology courses available and graduated overall top 1-2%. One of the reasons I did the research was because all of the Academic Community automatically and without any proof held the opinion that gay was genetic. I have gay relatives, gay friends and gay acquaintances and know a great deal about their lives because I'm old and have a prodigious memory. It is the reason I state several circumstances that led to "gay" orientation. I did the best research I was capable of and used the best databases available to the College. I'm had worked Research before attending this school and consider myself competent in that area. Data collection, collation and analysis are something I do well. I have a bachelors Computer/Networking related degree so I also know my way around a computer. I hope I have answered your question/s. As regards the professors holding the opinion that gay is genetic, I always felt they desired to demonstrate their open mindedness and somewhat liberal bents by being out front of the curve on the matter , again without proof. I think they have erred.
 
I'm neither a Psychologist nor a Psychiatrist. I did take all the Psychology courses available and graduated overall top 1-2%. One of the reasons I did the research was because all of the Academic Community automatically and without any proof held the opinion that gay was genetic. I have gay relatives, gay friends and gay acquaintances and know a great deal about their lives because I'm old and have a prodigious memory. It is the reason I state several circumstances that led to "gay" orientation. I did the best research I was capable of and used the best databases available to the College. I'm had worked Research before attending this school and consider myself competent in that area. Data collection, collation and analysis are something I do well. I have a bachelors Computer/Networking related degree so I also know my way around a computer. I hope I have answered your question/s. As regards the professors holding the opinion that gay is genetic, I always felt they desired to demonstrate their open mindedness and somewhat liberal bents by being out front of the curve on the matter , again without proof. I think they have erred.

Thanks, it was kind of you to go into such detail and I appreciate both the effort and the information. :)

Okay, so it appears that the question should be: what makes you think now, at the present time, that the majority of trained professionals in both psychiatry and psychology are wrong about sexuality not being a choice?
 
Thanks, it was kind of you to go into such detail and I appreciate both the effort and the information. :)

Okay, so it appears that the question should be: what makes you think now, at the present time, that the majority of trained professionals in both psychiatry and psychology are wrong about sexuality not being a choice?

How about because they still offer no proof. Genetics would be proof positive. Currently it is proof negative. I was guest lecturer in two Abnormal Psychology courses and explained what I have on the forum, but with greater detail about the individuals I was personally privy to pre-puberty and adolescent behavior.
 
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Doesn't have to be every case, so I have no idea why you're even making that argument. Either way, there's no reason to outlaw non-violent behavior.

lol What? I can think of dozens of non violent behaviors that are outlawed at this moment.

But no, homosexuality isn't a choice. Gays can't just flip over to the other side anymore than a straight person can make himself gay.

You said here that homosexuals do not have a choice, that they are homosexual and thats that. You also are asserting that heterosexuals are stuck being heterosexuals and have no choice in the matter. And now you are saying that it doesnt have to be in every case? So which is it then, gays and straights cant flip sides or some can?

Either way I believe that I made my point. That at least in some cases sexuality is a choice.
 
I'm neither a Psychologist nor a Psychiatrist. I did take all the Psychology courses available and graduated overall top 1-2%. One of the reasons I did the research was because all of the Academic Community automatically and without any proof held the opinion that gay was genetic. I have gay relatives, gay friends and gay acquaintances and know a great deal about their lives because I'm old and have a prodigious memory. It is the reason I state several circumstances that led to "gay" orientation. I did the best research I was capable of and used the best databases available to the College. I'm had worked Research before attending this school and consider myself competent in that area. Data collection, collation and analysis are something I do well. I have a bachelors Computer/Networking related degree so I also know my way around a computer. I hope I have answered your question/s. As regards the professors holding the opinion that gay is genetic, I always felt they desired to demonstrate their open mindedness and somewhat liberal bents by being out front of the curve on the matter , again without proof. I think they have erred.

Show us the data. If you went through all that work, then you must have some cited information to back up your point of view.

By the way...since you are so proficient in this area, could you please state the basis for proving causation?
 
How about because they still offer no proof. Genetics would be proof positive. Currently it is proof negative. I was guest lecturer in two Abnormal Psychology courses and explained what I have on the forum, but with greater detail about the individuals I was personally privy to pre-puberty and adolescent behavior.

Okay. hmmm... what do you think about this information? (In no particular order but none later than 2008)

Sexual Orientation: In The Brain - CBS News

Sexual orientation and its basis in brain structure and function

Brain Study Shows Differences Between Gays, Straights - Washington Post

BBC NEWS | Health | Scans see 'gay brain differences'

Gay Myths: 2 Bits Of Misinformation Debunked : Healthy Living : Medical Daily

Neuroscience and sexual orientation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
How about because they still offer no proof. Genetics would be proof positive. Currently it is proof negative. I was guest lecturer in two Abnormal Psychology courses and explained what I have on the forum, but with greater detail about the individuals I was personally privy to pre-puberty and adolescent behavior.

What burden of "proof" are you trying to find?

In order to truly prove that homosexuality is genetic, then they would have to genetically modify a random group of humans and see if they grew up to be homosexual. That would be incredibly unethical. There is no other way to conclusively prove it. What they can do is find correlations that are indicative of a genetic trait. In that regard they have found plenty.

The fact that they can't prove homosexuality is genetic has more to do with what they would have to do in order to prove it than whether or not it is genetic.

As somebody who was a "guest lecturer in two Abnormal Psychology courses" I find it odd that this fact would escape you.
 
However, bisexuality may not be a choice either. In my theory, expressed in post #103, #273, #278, #282, and modified in #355 to adapt "hormonal changes in the womb," it is a population control mechanism, sort of a bridge between heterosexual and homosexual orientations.

Therefore, the cross-over expression of bisexuality does not have to demonstrate a choice of behaviors by either homosexuals or heterosexuals, but a clear intermediate sexual orientation in and of itself.

And you are asserting more than just a opinion?

Asserting that sexual orientation is a biological method of population control seems a bit of a stretch to me. From a evolutionary position I think that your case really falls flat. The glaring problem is that human population growth has not in the slightest regressed in the thousands of years that homosexuality has existed. And I must point out that homosexuality existed in small populations where there wasnt any damn need to control population growth.

Different hormone levels doesnt prove homosexuality. If a man develops Male Hormone Deficiency it doesnt automatically mean that hes going to turn gay.

I didnt answer the poll because there isnt a choice for 'It depends on the individual'.

In my lifetime I have known many homosexuals. Some assert that they were that way from birth, but some get offended when people say its not a choice. And there are arguments from in between like a friend of mine that says that he was straight but was bored with it.
 
In my lifetime I have known many homosexuals. Some assert that they were that way from birth, but some get offended when people say its not a choice. And there are arguments from in between like a friend of mine that says that he was straight but was bored with it.

I agree with this notion. I think a lot of sexual diversity gets lost in the homosexuality debate. It isn't black and white, but the culture war has made it that way. I'm gay, but I have no idea why I am gay. I have never had sex with a women, and I never got that same kind of visceral "I want to get into that" feeling that I got with guys. I have no idea what made me that way and I feel hesitant to say that I was born that way or that I chose to be that way, but it is the way I am and it hasn't changed yet.
 
Show us the data. If you went through all that work, then you must have some cited information to back up your point of view.

By the way...since you are so proficient in this area, could you please state the basis for proving causation?

post number 178
 
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