View Poll Results: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

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  • Yes

    44 16.99%
  • No

    171 66.02%
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    44 16.99%
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Thread: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, it leaves us where we were before. That sexual orientation is caused by some combination of genetics, biology/hormones, and environment. Your hypothetical wouldn't yield us any new results. Let's say for example, the first kid to demonstrate any sexual identity, identifies as gay. We can conclude, reasonably, that his identity was probably created internally. The next child, however, has the environmental influence of the first child. Therefore the pure results are contaminated, and it could be internal or it could be external... or it could be a combination. Even the first child might have their internal prompts contaminated by other types of environmental socialization... or not. Sexual orientation is very complex.
    That's always been my take. I've known lots of homosexuals, and I've never been able to accept that ALL of them were "born that way" OR that it was JUST a "choice" or a "defect" of some kind.

    I've always felt that some were born that way and some "ended up" that way for one reason or other.

    I've always pointed to a phenomenon most have encountered. You walk into a room and unconsciously count the sexes. Then it turns out your count was wrong because one of the women was actually a man or vice versa. Not cross dressing, just bearing, mannerisms, etc. Not even the gender "overlay" one often sees. Perfectly, completely naturally effeminate men and masculine women.

    This always inferred an "inborn" element to me.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I work at a prison. It is not a natural setting for humans. The need for contact is greater than even the need for sex and people will get that contact any way they can.
    No doubt you're right.

    Reminds me of an episode of The Sopranos...Tony was spouting some homophobic rant, and his therapist asked "But what about prison?"

    And Tony said, "You get a pass for that."
    ...for perhaps the most admirable among the admirable laws of Nature is the survival of the weakest.
    --Vladimir Nabokov

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    It's a choice for women.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    You asked.

    Homosexuality: Nature, Nurture, or Politically Correct?

    The question of the nature of homosexuality has become an issue of a

    significantly political, as well as, politically correct nature. Is it nature or nurture? The

    fact that the standard question has eliminated the psychological possibility is a politically

    correct success. The motivational politics of homosexuality are clarified by reading

    "Homosexual Conduct and the Law," by Irving J. Sloan:

    The earliest legal argument for outlawing homosexuality is found in

    Plato's Laws ... Prohibitions on male homosexuality in the Old Testament,

    "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an

    abomination (Leviticus: 18:22). . . ." "If a man also lie with mankind, as

    with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall

    surely be put to death; their blood shall be them (Leviticus: 20:13)."(1)

    To paraphrase Sloan, death by burning, hanging, burying alive... exile, castration,

    corporal punishment, etc., have been politically correct solutions for homosexuality (2-4).

    This history presents some of the motivational forces driving advocacy groups to promote

    studies indicating a genetic link to homosexuality. Recent genetic studies have shown

    links to personality (Colt, George Howe, 1998), overall happiness, psychornotor reaction

    time (Simonen et al, 1998), mathematics disability (Alarcon, Marciela, 1997) and many

    factors which had been presumed to be the province of nurture (environment). Is there a

    genetic component to homosexuality as opposed to heterosexuality? This question begs

    for answers, and answers are available if one approaches the subject matter logically.

    In this age of computers, the logical starting place is established databases, and in

    this specific case, a database of twins would be ideal. Hershberger's study of the study

    by Lykken et al., "The Minnesota Twin Family Regist is exactly that and is used

    extensively by many of the authors whose works are cited on these pages. To paraphrase

    the study, twins registered in the State of Minnesota from 1936 to 1955 were sent

    questionnaires, the replies allowing analysis of whether or not the twins were

    monozygotic (identical) or dizygotic (fraternal). The questionnaire also requested the

    twin~ sexual orientation, his/her twil sexual orientation, his/her non-twin siblings sexual

    orientation, marital status, sexual orientation before age 25 and after age 25, and the

    number and frequency of sexual encounters with persons of the same or opposite sex (3

    of 3, 5,6,7 of 7).

    An initial study of the Australian Twin Registry database by Michael Bailey of

    Northwestern and Richard Pillard of the Boston School of Medicine was highly

    publicized internationally as the proof of a high genetic influence for



    homosexuality (Shapiro 4 of 6),,The study was refuted by one of the authors in a

    subsequent and much less publicized study, as documented by Jones in "The Incredibly

    Shrinking Gay Gene ... .. Michael Bailey of Northwestern has produced a study that

    refutes his earlier research conducted with Richard Pillard of the Boston School of

    Medicine, which claimed that there is a high genetic influence on homosexuality "(53).

    In this same study " Only 3 pairs of identical male twins were both homosexual out of a

    total of 27 male identical twin pairs where at least one twin was homosexual"(53). These

    27 pairs had 100% gene match in the individual twin pairs. If the gene was a significant

    influencing factor, the incidence of homosexuality for both twins should have been much

    higher. This is saying that homosexuality is not a genetic marker. These are identical

    twins with same color eyes (genetic marker), same hair color (genetic marker), near

    100% shared attributes (genetic markers), but no genetic marker for homosexuality.

    Actually, 10% of the pairs were both gays, which begs a question.

    Did the twin participant questionnaires used in the study ask if the twins were

    raised by one or more gay parent/s? This is significant because children of gay parents

    are 10 times (30%) as likely to be gay as the general population (3%)(Cameron, 1997, 8

    and 9 of 14). In a twin study this is significant because it could cause sample bias. If this

    error is not eliminated from any twin study an implication of genetic causation for

    homosexuality will result; however, it will be a very small implication statistically. For

    example, relate to the 27 pairs of twins and if one parent was gay (I in 33, or 3% would

    be the average), then it is a strong possibility that one of the homosexual pairs could have

    been caused by that factor and it dilutes an already minimal percentage (10%) to a lower

    percentage (7.4%). It is worth noting again that this genetic marker is the same marker

    that causes the 100% match of hair color and many other attributes that motivate the

    researcher to choose a monozygotic twin study for meaningful analysis.

    In a Minnesota Twin Registry study, "A Twin Registry Study of Male and Female

    Sexual Orientation" by Hershberger, this data is analyzed with particular emphasis on the

    monozygotic twins, because this represents an identical gene match (100%). This is

    important for the purpose of the study because it would indicate that the sexuality of the

    one twin has to be exactly the same for the co-twin if genetics causes the sexual

    orientation. As in the Australian study, this is not the case, as this quote from the

    Hershberger study reveals.

    For men, depending on the criterion used, the prevalence of homosexuality

    ranges for 1.06% to 3.24%, with an average of 2.49%; for women, the

    range is from.55% to 2.11%, with an average of 1.68%. If combined with

    bisexuality, the average rises to 4.57% for men and 3.26% for women.

    These rates of homosexuality are very similar to those found in studies

    using probability samples conducted in the United States and elsewhere(4

    of 9 in 2 of 3).

    The Hershberger study also states; "Specifically, significant genetic effects were

    found for self-identified female homosexuality, but not for male homosexuality, in both

    the twin and extended family analyses."(5 of 9 in 2 of 3) The questionnaire used for this

    study is included (6 of 7 and 7 of 7 in 3 of 3), and the question of gay parents is not

    included, causing the same potential flaws as indicated for the Australian study.

    In the case of monozygotic twins, any marker that does not match is the deviation.

    The deviation should be measured against 100%, meaning the further away from 100%

    (which is the expected match), the greater the proof that the factor is not genetic. If twins

    do not have the same eye color, they are not monozygotic, meaning no 100% gene match.

    Does this statement sufficiently dramatize genetic correlation?

    The factual conclusions do not support a link between genetics and

    homosexuality. Many institutions have attempted to stand on high moral ground by

    giving generous interpretations of minimal statistical data implying genetic

    homosexuality. The data should be overwhelming, if true, in a monozygotic twin study,

    most certainly not a minimal statistic. The ABCNEWS.com special, "Nurture, Not

    Nature" concludes that a sense of humor is not genetic (1). Overall happiness: however,

    is genetic as acknowledged by Simonen et al (1998). Asa reminder, referring to Emma

    Wilson's, "Textuality and (homo) Sexuality in Tournier's Les Meteores" to acknowledge

    the psychological inferences, in this case, narcissism, regarding homosexuality might be

    enlightening (9 of 9). The backlash caused by the historical overreaction to

    homosexuality is analogous to affirmative action. Do the words, "too much of a good

    thing," strike a responsive chord here?
    Twins are an aberration psychologically.

    Every set I've ever met "polarize", apparently as a means of establishing individuality.

    One is usually bigger, more dominant. I've know two sets of female twins where one was gay and the other not, and one where both were gay (although I had doubts about one of them). In all three cases it was the bigger "dominant" twin that was gay (or gay "first" in the set where both were).

    This is why I've always been skeptical of twin studies. Genetics is only part of the equation in twins, their unique paychology can't be left out of the equation.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by davidtaylorjr View Post
    Leviticus 18:22
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
    Is that the old testament "bro code"? Its ok to lie to women but not to other men?
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by davidtaylorjr View Post
    Actually no, you are still wrong:

    "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion" (Romans 1:26-27).
    I never considered orgasms to be a "penalty".
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    That's nonsense. If Tom is now feeling he's not straight, it's likely he never was. Think of a spectrum.

    As I have said, choice lies in the ability to do both. Only those who can realistically consider both have choice.
    Who are you to say what Tom is, was, or could be? You dont get to define Toms sexuality for him. Nor could you have the personal insight to know.

    Or are you claiming to be magic?

    The ability to do both doesnt mean that you want to do both. But one can realistically consider other options. That is what is done when a person makes a choice, you consider the options.

    The reason that the religious right has taken up the argument that homosexuality is a choice is because the word choice has various definitions. Their objective is to have homosexuality a choice because they consider it a sin, and for one to sin one had to have the free will to make the choice to sin. Some things have only one choice, one outcome in a situation might exist so you chose the only alternative. But if you refuse to choose you still made a choice. So it that case their objective to make homosexuality a choice has been achieved, it may not be the definition one would have expected but there it is. I dont agree with such manipulative argument nor with your argument that a person must be willing to try both alternatives to chose between those alternatives. After all I dont need to die to choose to live. So I dont need to engage in homosexual sex or the various variances of sexual orientation to make a choice.

    But again not everyone can make a choice in there sexual orientation. And more likely than not a homosexual, bisexual, asexual or a heterosexual did not make a choice at all. And couldnt make a choice if they wanted to. Or at least that is my opinion. The science of sexuality is at its infancy and at best is conflicting. SO this subject at this point can only be subjective based on personal experience rather than hard facts. So it may be your opinion that one must try different sexuality in order to choose, but I dont agree.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Who are you to say what Tom is, was, or could be? You dont get to define Toms sexuality for him. Nor could you have the personal insight to know.

    Or are you claiming to be magic?

    The ability to do both doesnt mean that you want to do both. But one can realistically consider other options. That is what is done when a person makes a choice, you consider the options.

    The reason that the religious right has taken up the argument that homosexuality is a choice is because the word choice has various definitions. Their objective is to have homosexuality a choice because they consider it a sin, and for one to sin one had to have the free will to make the choice to sin. Some things have only one choice, one outcome in a situation might exist so you chose the only alternative. But if you refuse to choose you still made a choice. So it that case their objective to make homosexuality a choice has been achieved, it may not be the definition one would have expected but there it is. I dont agree with such manipulative argument nor with your argument that a person must be willing to try both alternatives to chose between those alternatives. After all I dont need to die to choose to live. So I dont need to engage in homosexual sex or the various variances of sexual orientation to make a choice.

    But again not everyone can make a choice in there sexual orientation. And more likely than not a homosexual, bisexual, asexual or a heterosexual did not make a choice at all. And couldnt make a choice if they wanted to. Or at least that is my opinion. The science of sexuality is at its infancy and at best is conflicting. SO this subject at this point can only be subjective based on personal experience rather than hard facts. So it may be your opinion that one must try different sexuality in order to choose, but I dont agree.
    I'm an intelligent person.

    We're not talking about what any individual might do, but how it works among reasonable people.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm an intelligent person.

    We're not talking about what any individual might do, but how it works among reasonable people.


    Ok you are intelligent so therefor this link should explain a lot to you. Sexual orientation, homosexuality and bisexuality

    About APA
    The American Psychological Association is the largest scientific and professional organization representing psychology in the United States. APA is the world's largest association of psychologists, with more than 134,000 researchers, educators, clinicians, consultants and students as its members.

    Our mission is to advance the creation, communication and application of psychological knowledge to benefit society and improve people's lives


    How do people know if they are lesbian, gay, or bisexual?
    According to current scientific and professional understanding, the core attractions that form the basis for adult sexual orientation typically emerge between middle childhood and early adolescence. These patterns of emotional, romantic, and sexual attraction may arise without any prior sexual experience. People can be celibate and still know their sexual orientation-–be it lesbian, gay, bisexual, or heterosexual.
    Different lesbian, gay, and bisexual people have very different experiences regarding their sexual orientation. Some people know that they are lesbian, gay, or bisexual for a long time before they actually pursue relationships with other people. Some people engage in sexual activity (with same-sex and/or other-sex partners) before assigning a clear label to their sexual orientation. Prejudice and discrimination make it difficult for many people to come to terms with their sexual orientation identities, so claiming a lesbian, gay, or bisexual identity may be a slow process.

    What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?
    There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Ok you are intelligent so therefor this link should explain a lot to you. Sexual orientation, homosexuality and bisexuality

    About APA
    The American Psychological Association is the largest scientific and professional organization representing psychology in the United States. APA is the world's largest association of psychologists, with more than 134,000 researchers, educators, clinicians, consultants and students as its members.

    Our mission is to advance the creation, communication and application of psychological knowledge to benefit society and improve people's lives


    How do people know if they are lesbian, gay, or bisexual?
    According to current scientific and professional understanding, the core attractions that form the basis for adult sexual orientation typically emerge between middle childhood and early adolescence. These patterns of emotional, romantic, and sexual attraction may arise without any prior sexual experience. People can be celibate and still know their sexual orientation-–be it lesbian, gay, bisexual, or heterosexual.
    Different lesbian, gay, and bisexual people have very different experiences regarding their sexual orientation. Some people know that they are lesbian, gay, or bisexual for a long time before they actually pursue relationships with other people. Some people engage in sexual activity (with same-sex and/or other-sex partners) before assigning a clear label to their sexual orientation. Prejudice and discrimination make it difficult for many people to come to terms with their sexual orientation identities, so claiming a lesbian, gay, or bisexual identity may be a slow process.

    What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?
    There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.
    You post nothing here I haven't read before. I think you're completely lost.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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