View Poll Results: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

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  • Yes

    44 16.99%
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    171 66.02%
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Thread: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

  1. #541
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    But you stated that the trauma of the sexual assault is the catalyst for her choice to change orientations. Then by logical extension, the trauma that the soliders experience is the catalyst for them to choose to be emotionally numb, hypervigilance, etc.

    Now I agree that it's not the same as being born with a given orientation, nor was that my argument. I merely countered iacardsfan's assertion that for one to "change" one has to have had some level of attraction prior to the "change". However, in my sister's case, while not a choice, the change is indeed a change and most likely a reversible one should he ever bother to get proper treatment. Right now she is living a happy, functional life so I doubt that it will be.
    In the ptsd example, there is only one event: PTSD. This event can manifest as numbing, vigilance, thrill seeking.

    In the example of -- your sister, was it?-- there were two events. Sexual assault followed by a change in orientation.

    My view on this, is based on my belief that orientation is voluntary. Therefore, I can not agree that the sexual assault forced her to change. If this seems illogical to you.... well, i'm not sure i have an explanation. It is my belief that I'm expressing. But I've been at this for hours now and i'm getting tired.

    If you argue that there must have been an event that caused the PTSD... seeing your buddies blown up, then yes, i would agree that that event caused/forced the PTSD. Again, I can't agree that assault forced a change. Well, if you want to get down to teh nitty gritty... I might agree that the assault forced her to change, but then therapy or just her own thinking/healing absent of external treatment, allowed her to choose to change her orientation back.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Maybe. But if it never occurs to you, there really isn't a choice being made. It's a response. Think about when you were sixteen and how your body responded. What if your body responded automatically the same way, to a man as it did to a female? That would require a choice. But if it only responded automatically one way? Where's the choice?
    Oh boy. it's late. i hope i can express myself clearly. I want to. but my attention span is fading. here we go...

    It became a habit as a result of a choice that i made consistently. at first, at a young age, i responded to my programming-- the images and messages i received from media, school, parents etc...--- I would agree that there was no choice there. But at some point during my development, early teens maybe? late teens? I don't know.... I reallied that I COULD choose. I decided that I could ignore programming. It has been a choice ever since.

  3. #543
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Have you considered the possibility that you are bisexual and that other people who identify as "gay" or "straight" may not be as capable of choosing as you are?
    Dude, I believe we are all bisexual. That is part of my belief that orientation is a choice. I believe that a person can change his orientation (temporary condition) unlimited times in his/her lifespan. I believe that if a person lived his/her whole lifespan as a heterosexual... so what? who's to say that adding a 100 years to our lifespan wouldn't result in a few changes in orientation? But because our lifespan is such, it is taken for granted that if a person lived it as one oreintation or another, then that is how it was meant to be and that could never change no matter how long or short the person lived. IMO, on a long enough timeline, anything is possible.

  4. #544
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by USNavySquid View Post
    In the ptsd example, there is only one event: PTSD. This event can manifest as numbing, vigilance, thrill seeking.

    In the example of -- your sister, was it?-- there were two events. Sexual assault followed by a change in orientation.

    My view on this, is based on my belief that orientation is voluntary. Therefore, I can not agree that the sexual assault forced her to change. If this seems illogical to you.... well, i'm not sure i have an explanation. It is my belief that I'm expressing. But I've been at this for hours now and i'm getting tired.

    If you argue that there must have been an event that caused the PTSD... seeing your buddies blown up, then yes, i would agree that that event caused/forced the PTSD. Again, I can't agree that assault forced a change. Well, if you want to get down to teh nitty gritty... I might agree that the assault forced her to change, but then therapy or just her own thinking/healing absent of external treatment, allowed her to choose to change her orientation back.
    The behaviors that you've listed in association with PTSD are changed behaviors. If one was a thrill seeker before then thrill seeking would not be, in that individual, a symptom of the PTSD.

    Basically, event happen, event causes trauma, trauma causes some kind of change. In my sister's case, the trauma caused by the assault forced the change, it was not a choice or a catalyst/cause for the choice. She has not reverted back to her original orientation. She has otherwise healed and is functional, but her orientation has not changed back.

  5. #545
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by USNavySquid View Post
    Oh boy. it's late. i hope i can express myself clearly. I want to. but my attention span is fading. here we go...

    It became a habit as a result of a choice that i made consistently. at first, at a young age, i responded to my programming-- the images and messages i received from media, school, parents etc...--- I would agree that there was no choice there. But at some point during my development, early teens maybe? late teens? I don't know.... I reallied that I COULD choose. I decided that I could ignore programming. It has been a choice ever since.
    Messages reinforce social norms for the most part, but at sixteen, that is not what makes a young mans body respond. He response to visual stimuli, and automatically. If ths doesn't happen when you see both sexes, there is no logical way ant choice is involved. And frankly, if you haven't taken both out for a test drive, there's no way to make an informed choice.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  6. #546
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by USNavySquid View Post
    I agree with your first statement. I think the reason those assumptions are weak is because people cling to differences, as soon as they discover a difference, the assumption fails. I suggest we re-define "difference, similarity, orientation." I think re-defining would ... preclude any of our assumptions from failing.


    regarding the article you linked....

    "The researchers said quicker reaction time for "me" and "gay," and a slower association of "me" with "straight" would indicate said an implicit gay orientation. "

    Please. That's an opinion. The quicker reaction time could mean that it is easier for me to identify what I am Not, than what I am. as in... A big ugly goofball?... NO! A dashing casanova? ... well, ... um.. (tick-tock tic-tock) yes.

    "In another experiment, the researchers measured implicit sexual orientation by having participants choose to browse same-sex or opposite-sex photos on a computer screen."

    I could be straight as an arrow yet still spend time looking at gay porn just because i'm interested from an intellectual standpoint.

    "This inner conflict can be seen in some high-profile cases in which anti-gay public figures are caught engaging in same-sex acts, the researchers say. For instance, evangelical preacher and anti-gay-marriage advocate Ted Haggard was caught in a gay sex scandal in 2006. And in 2010, prominent anti-gay activist and co-founder of conservative Family Research Council George Rekers was reportedly spotted in 2010 with a male escort rented from Rentboy.com. According to news reports, the escort confirmed Rekers is gay."

    Again.. the conclusion. I question Why was Ted Haggard anti-gay? Was he anti-gay because he thought gays were deviant and subhuman? or was he anti-gay because he recognized a platform by which he could gain political power?

    I don't care if you are gay. Even if you make a pass at me. And the reason these guys are anti is because it fullfills something in their lives. IMHO it is sick though.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Dude, you propose that all gays are the same. You simply argue that they can ALL choose to not be gay.
    Revolutionary isn't it? sorry i'm tired. I'm saying we are all the same as far as we are all bisexual. On top of that lowest common denominator, the choice to live as a bisexual, homo or hetero are the minor differences among us. Those little lifestyle choices, different as they may be, do not trump our common ability to make different choices. If you call me crazy I won't argue. I believe my ideas are possible though.




    However you want to interpret it. I think at a certain point though, you are beginning to rationalize your confirmation bias. I'm off to bed, but I would like to see if you could provide some good evidence that homosexuality can be changed. Given that you are so ready to dismiss evidence that suggests otherwise, you must have some pretty excellent evidence beyond a few anecdotal accounts to support your conclusion that gays can choose not to be gay.
    yes. we all rationalize. that goes back to turning ideas around in our heads until we find the side we are comfortable with. we are all biased. If we disagree, then it is clear that we must be biased.

    I don't hav any evidence that homosexuality can be changed. I think the existence of bisexuals supports my idea though. I think prison behavior and navy ship behavior and monastery behavior and boy-scout camp behavior support my idea that attractions can change. If coffee can be an acquired taste, why not gay sex? nah. that's crazy. In a small town, fat chics with pretty faces are all 10's. Beauty and sexual desire are in the eye of the beholder. There are deep-seated(seeded?) reasons why we are scared to contemplate the possibility of having choice in the matter.

  8. #548
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Messages reinforce social norms for the most part, but at sixteen, that is not what makes a young mans body respond. He response to visual stimuli, and automatically. If ths doesn't happen when you see both sexes, there is no logical way ant choice is involved. And frankly, if you haven't taken both out for a test drive, there's no way to make an informed choice.
    ahh boo boo boo. we are getting deeper into this topic. response to visual stimuli. lets talk about that. what happens when i look at something? are my eyes being forced to look at the naked body? in my opinion... no. I am choosing to point my eyes towards the naked body.

    am i looking but thinking of something else? maybe. that's a choice.

    does my penis automatically become erect? in my opinion... no.

    what else happens? do i imagine or think of pleasant exercises to do with that naked body? yes. is that a choice? yes. unless you think the i cant control my own thoughts (which is true in cases of mental illness but that is not part of this example.)


    and when i start to think about that naked body touching mine, do i get a pleasurable response? assuming that the touches are pleasing to me, then yes. I get the pleasurable response.

    Now going back to the beginning, what was the cause of that response...? the response was caused by my choices. 1) choosing to point my eyes 2) choosing to think of the body and not to think about my math test tomorrow 3) choosing to imagine doing things to that body that i would like

    ta-da! erection! yay!

    now whether the body was a man's or a woman's, it is my choice what i will do with my eyes, my attention and my thoughts. the choices lead to the erection. and if i want the erection, nothing will stop me from making the choices to get it. and if i don't want the erection... hey! that's another choice.
    Last edited by USNavySquid; 08-03-13 at 01:51 AM.

  9. #549
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by USNavySquid View Post
    ahh boo boo boo. we are getting deeper into this topic. response to visual stimuli. lets talk about that. what happens when i look at something? are my eyes being forced to look at the naked body? in my opinion... no. I am choosing to point my eyes towards the naked body.

    am i looking but thinking of something else? maybe. that's a choice.

    does my penis automatically become erect? in my opinion... no.

    what else happens? do i imagine or think of pleasant exercises to do with that naked body? yes. is that a choice? yes. unless you think the i cant control my own thoughts (which is true in cases of mental illness but that is not part of this example.)


    and when i start to think about that naked body touching mine, do i get a pleasurable response? assuming that the touches are pleasing to me, then yes. I get the pleasurable response.

    Now going back to the beginning, what was the cause of that response...? the response was caused by my choices. 1) choosing to point my eyes 2) choosing to think of the body and not to think about my math test tomorrow 3) choosing to imagine doing things to that body that i would like

    ta-da! erection! yay!

    now whether the body was a man's or a woman's, it is my choice what i will do with my eyes, my attention and my thoughts. the choices lead to the erection. and if i want the erection, nothing will stop me from making the choices to get it.
    I'm not sure you were ever sixteen. No, that's not how it worked then. And they did not have to be naked. I remember very distinctly reaction to a home EC teacher. No thought. No decision to look. Just seeing an reacting. Talk to other men with better memories.

    And again, if you don't try both out, you do not have enough information for an informed choice.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  10. #550
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Given that you are so ready to dismiss evidence that suggests otherwise, you must have some pretty excellent evidence beyond a few anecdotal accounts to support your conclusion that gays can choose not to be gay.

    I don't dismiss it. I recognize it as inconclusive. You don't expect me to accept inconclusive research do you? Do you accept it, CriticalThought? The studies themselves say that they are merely suggestive.

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