View Poll Results: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

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  • Yes

    44 16.99%
  • No

    171 66.02%
  • Maybe/Don't Know

    44 16.99%
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Thread: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

  1. #271
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightrider View Post
    This isn't about whether one is for or against gay marriage.....

    Simply vote and discuss whether you believe that homosexuals have a choice in the matter, or were simply born that way, with no choice whatsoever.

    Please be courteous - thanks in advance.
    I'm a heterosexual but I choose abstinence since I'm no longer married. To that same degree is homosexuality a choice for gays, no more or less.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    There's no poll.

    But no, homosexuality isn't a choice. Gays can't just flip over to the other side anymore than a straight person can make himself gay.
    You're posting this 1 minute after the thread was made. Have you never made a poll? The poll does not appear with the thread. The poll has to be made after the thread is made. It takes a moment if you want it don right. Calm the **** down Mr. Eager Beaver.

  3. #273
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by USNavySquid View Post
    What do you mean by "accept" in heterosexuals a basic....? I don't believe such a drive exists, even if it did, i would not believe that it could not and should not be ignored. I disagree with the second sentence ("Yet you seem...") I don't feel that way at all.

    I am still thinking about what, aside from innate homosexual orientation, would cause the boy's behavior. Tough one.
    Well as you could see I did not state you had such a belief, (noted by the various "??" I placed) only that it seemed to me that might be the case. Thank you for corrcting my impression.

    Quote Originally Posted by USNavySquid View Post
    If homosexuality is not a choice, then must there be genetic markers for it?
    What about bisexuals? Should they also have distinct genetic markers for bisexuality?
    How do people who believe that sexual orientation is not a choice explain bisexuals?


    Is sexual orientation evidenced by sexual acts, falling in love (with a certain sex), or both?
    I chose to focus on this part of your second post because it goes hand in hand with my possible genetic deviation theory. Always recall, I consider this only ONE of three factors that lead to active homo- and heterosexuality.

    We alread know that certain combinations of X and Y chromosomes not only determine sex (XX = female, XY = male) but that there are combinations that cause other effects (XXX, XXY, XYY, etc.) such as females with male characteristics, males with female characteristics, and even hermaphrodites.

    It is my belief that sexual orientation is a natural population control mechanism for the Human species, and as such our genetic codes carry "markers" for the whole range of sexual orientations...with hetero and homosxuality on the extremes and bisexuality serving as in interim bridge. This theory does not eliminate choice, since individual personality can effect behavior such that either orientation, heterosexual or homosexual, can have members with a very experimental personality leading to such things as sadism, masochism, beastiality, group sex, and even same-sex/opposite-sex encounters.

    Still, it is my belief that bisexuality is a distinct orientation serving as an initial expression of population control to slow growth in a developing population, and homosexuality is an expression to retard such growth.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 06-29-13 at 04:33 AM.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    edited for inadvertent double post
    Last edited by USNavySquid; 06-29-13 at 05:11 AM.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post


    Still, it is my belief that bisexuality is a distinct orientation serving as an initial expression of population control to slow growth in a developing population, and homosexuality is an expression to retard such growth.
    My understanding is that the world's population has boomed over the past 1000 years compared to that previous 10,000. You are suggesting that, despite being able to grow our own food and increase beef production, that evolution in the past 1000 years has turned on a control-the-pop-via-homosexuality-function? That's pretty fast-acting evolution. Or, are you saying the marker is already there and just awaits being turned on? Of course, it would help to know how many homosexuals there were between 1000 and 10,000 years ago. And it would help to know what environmental cues turn on the homosexuality function. Lack of food? Possibly. -If there is a difference in the # of homosexuals in food poor nations and the # of homosexuals in food rich nations. If the rate is the same, then lack of food will not turn on the cue/marker.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by USNavySquid View Post
    If homosexuality is not a choice, then must there be genetic markers for it?
    What about bisexuals? Should they also have distinct genetic markers for bisexuality?
    How do people who believe that sexual orientation is not a choice explain bisexuals?


    Is sexual orientation evidenced by sexual acts, falling in love (with a certain sex), or both?

    I've heard many people say that it is not sexual acts alone. I agree. After all, everything (not everything you literal idiots) feels good with the lights off.
    I haven't heard any comments on whether it is or isn't related to who you fall in love with. I have heard that sexual orientation is related strongly to attraction. As in: If you are attracted to the same sex then you are homosexual.

    And that being attracted to whichever of the two sexes you are attracted to... never changes. This point I find difficult to agree with. I find that familiarity (among other things) breeds attraction. You become familiar by paying attention. Who you pay attention to is influenced in part by who is in your environment. Not that your environment forces you to pay a certain amount of attention to someone. It certainly does not.

    It's a tricky call. Which is the cause of the other?
    I looked at his butt as he walked by because I am attracted to him
    Or
    I became attracted after staring at his butt?

    The first situation implies (to me) that I have no control over where my own eyes point. The second situation makes more sense to me.... Staring lead to contemplating and contemplating lead to lusting.

    In guys who say they did not choose to be straight, I think they simply have not allowed themselves to get to the contemplating phase, or to get past it.

    In guys who say they tried to be attracted to girls but it never worked.... Well, I don't want to argue with their personal experience. After all, they are firsthand, expert witnesses. Still, I think on a long enough timeline, with the right kind of contemplating, then attraction would occur. Attention comes first.
    Well, i appreciate that you approach it with questions and an open mind. The way i would define sexuality is physical and emotional attraction to whatever gender. For your genetic marking question, I believe most research of late has indicated the womb environment and epimarks determines this.

    The thing about your familiarity argument, I can buy that up to a point. My uncle had 3 kids and 20 years of marriage and finally came out last year. It's long been argued that sexuality exists on a spectrum. For people at the extreme of either end, familiarity alone cannot make them fall in love with someone they're not at all attracted to, not even if they see that person on a regular basis in a marriage.

    How I would account for bisexuals is they are naturally attracted to both genders, to one degree or another. On the spectrum, they fall somewhere in between. I think where your point is most relevant is when we may glance at someone and not give it much thought, but after spending time with them, we may fall for their personality or their looks. This is not the same as sexuality changing though. A conclusion is appropriate after a person sees hundreds/thousands of people and every single case of being attracted is toward the same/opposite gender.
    Last edited by chromium; 06-29-13 at 05:23 AM.

  7. #277
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by USNavySquid View Post
    My understanding is that the world's population has boomed over the past 1000 years compared to that previous 10,000. You are suggesting that, despite being able to grow our own food and increase beef production, that evolution in the past 1000 years has turned on a control-the-pop-via-homosexuality-function? That's pretty fast-acting evolution. Or, are you saying the marker is already there and just awaits being turned on? Of course, it would help to know how many homosexuals there were between 1000 and 10,000 years ago. And it would help to know what environmental cues turn on the homosexuality function. Lack of food? Possibly. -If there is a difference in the # of homosexuals in food poor nations and the # of homosexuals in food rich nations. If the rate is the same, then lack of food will not turn on the cue/marker.
    1000 years is pretty short for evolution to work. However, population control has been a factor for millions of years. Still, populations are not an evolutionary unit, so it is highly unlikely. This does not preclude homosexuality being evolutionarily selected for, which is entirely possible though without any evidence either way at this time.
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by USNavySquid View Post
    My understanding is that the world's population has boomed over the past 1000 years compared to that previous 10,000. You are suggesting that, despite being able to grow our own food and increase beef production, that evolution in the past 1000 years has turned on a control-the-pop-via-homosexuality-function? That's pretty fast-acting evolution. Or, are you saying the marker is already there and just awaits being turned on? Of course, it would help to know how many homosexuals there were between 1000 and 10,000 years ago. And it would help to know what environmental cues turn on the homosexuality function. Lack of food? Possibly. -If there is a difference in the # of homosexuals in food poor nations and the # of homosexuals in food rich nations. If the rate is the same, then lack of food will not turn on the cue/marker.
    You take "over-population" too literally. You forget our species has developed over a period of about a million years (unless you are a member of a Christian sect that believes we've only been around about 5,000 years). Population issues involve availability of, and competition for, resources. Furthermore we must also deal with natural selection factors of climate, disease, and predators. During our initial stage of development (hunter-gatherer?) even relatively tiny populations in comparison to today could deplete available local resources. Thus this cue/marker would become established in our early development in such small populations as periodic aberrations indistiquishable from the norm except to serve as a neuter, i.e. one less male or female interested in procreating.

    However, as humanity gained more and more control over these various factors reducing their effect on population control, such "aberrations" would statistically increase in proportion to growth. Yet it would still remain statistically small in comparison to our over-all population. It is just more noticeable because while statistically small, the overall population is very large and so the incidence of noticeable same-sex and bisexual orientations seems larger then prior experience. See?

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    Well, i appreciate that you approach it with questions and an open mind. The way i would define sexuality is physical and emotional attraction to whatever gender. The thing about your familiarity argument, I can buy that up to a point. My uncle had 3 kids and 20 years of marriage and finally came out last year. It's long been argued that sexuality exists on a spectrum. For people at the extreme of either end, familiarity alone cannot make them fall in love with someone they're not at all attracted to, not even if they see that person on a regular basis in a marriage.

    How I would account for bisexuals is they are naturally attracted to both genders, to one degree or another. On the spectrum, they fall somewhere in between. I think where your point is most relevant is when we may glance at someone and not give it much thought, but after spending time with them, we may fall for their personality or their looks. This is not the same as sexuality changing though. A conclusion is appropriate after a person sees hundreds/thousands of people and every single case of being attracted is toward the same/opposite gender.
    I think physical attraction and emotional attraction are the same thing, but I could be convinced otherwise. I think they are the same because they both manifest as a result of chemical reactions in the body AKA physical responses. That's based on my layman's understanding of feelings and the hormones that correspond to them.

    Regarding your uncle, what we as bystanders say about him carries less weight than what he says about himself. I may observe that after 20 yrs with kids in a hetero relationship that he must be bisexual to change to homosexual relationships. But if he says, "No. I was homosexual all along." Then how can i argue with that? I wouldn't argue, of course. But I would love to ask him a bunch of questions: Did you love your wife? Deeply? How did you show it? Did she arouse you? How? Did you fantasize about her? Others? etc etc. This would be enlightening for the purpose of understanding more about love/attraction.

    I'm usually for the spectrum idea as related to other aspects of the human condition. I haven't applied it to sexuality. I tend to agree with what you say about familiarity not being enough to make people at the extremes attracted to others. But.... on a longer timeline perhaps familiarity would be prove to be enough.

    bisexuals.... naturally attracted to both genders, you say. For me, that attraction comes as a result of the staring-contemplating-lusting progression. During the contemplating phase, the bisexual suppressed or rewrote his/her social programming and opened up to the possibility of pleasure/love/both with an "other". Then tried it out. And again and again.

    If we are not attracted to someone, I think it is due to social programming and lack of familiarity. How do you explain acquired tastes? I didn't like coffee the first time i drank it. But I re-wrote that program, paid attention to coffee and now I like it. Now I crave it. That process of developing a like for something..... on a low level, is it much different from developing an attraction to a man or woman? Of course people may say, "you can't compare sexual orientation to coffee drinking." But the two have underlying processes that I think may have some steps in common. First I had to open myself up to the possibility of coffee.

    Your last sentence, i disagree with because it diminishes the truth of a single occurrence. To me, a conclusion is appropriate only when it accounts for all observed variations. --Not just the occurrences that agree or are the same. To eliminate the minor differences in the results from the final conclusion is to make a weak conclusion.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Agree with your 1st paragraph.

    2nd paragraph.... you are saying that since we have gained control over various factors (medicine vs. disease, strong shelter vs. weather, farms vs. gathering) but the marker is still present, so homosexuals will increase without having the need to... as in the need to prevent conflict/population loss due to the various factors listed. So.... with homosexuals increasing, they still remain a small % of our overall population, but b/c that % represents a large number, we see them more frequently....? I can't say I agree with that. It seems to assume too much. We don't know how frequently ancient societies saw homosexuals. (or do we?) If it's genetic, then heterosexual parents are only carriers? Despite both heterosexual parents coming from well nourished, healthy, well-resourced neighborhoods, their spoiled rich kid is a homosexual? Am I taking it too literal again?

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