View Poll Results: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

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  • Yes

    44 16.99%
  • No

    171 66.02%
  • Maybe/Don't Know

    44 16.99%
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Thread: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

  1. #1301
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Hold on you just said:
    Taking posts out of context isn't clever.

    I don't believe in types of people.

    Others do. And can typically explain it.

    I find those two statements to be rather confusing if not contradictory. And let's be honest. Do you really think that in today's world most people are very introspective? Some days I really have to wonder.
    They aren't contradictory. I don't have a type, I don't believe there are types. Others do and use such language. Its not confusing in the least once you realize I was talking about my own personal perspective.

    I Believe that most people are introspective its quite obvious they are it just manifests itself different than you would expect.

    I'm confused. I'm attracted to my own gender so I am homo- or bi-sexual. Homosexual and bisexual are orientations, not attractions. So I have an attraction but it's not an attraction because it's an orientation?
    You wouldn't be sexually attracted to your own gender if you weren't in that orientation.

    You are confused because you are thinking attraction and orientation are the same thing. Again orientation refers to your position in relation to others. Attraction refers to the draw towards certain things.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    People might know what...but not why. I really dig the olive skinned, black eyes, dark hair...yadda, yadda, yadda. But in the end...I would "NOT" truly be able to tell you why. I can say something to the effect that ice blue eyes turn me on...or honey blond, yadda, yadda...but if I really and truly try to express where it comes from. I don't think I can.

    edited: Added the word "NOT"
    It comes from your mind, don't sell that part of you short.

    Ice blue eyes turning you on is the reason you are attracted to ice blue eyes, simple as that. There is likely some psychological reason that ice blue eyes turn you on, but that is likely a different thing for everybody.

  3. #1303
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Well I am not going to be one for claiming "unlearn-able". If this is a possibility (and I'm one who believe in multiple sources for orientations) then it seems to be so ingrained that it would be next to impossible to unlearn it, or more accurately to learn something else to override it. What is the correlation on identical twins raised separately and then is there any difference in correlation that seems to vary with length of time separated? While I myself had noted that even identical twins would not share the exact same experiences growing up, they would indeed share many. Given that we don't know what combination of factors would cause the tip in one direction or the other, it is logical that there would be times when both twins would end up with the same orientation and times when they wouldn't. If they shared no experiences together and there was still a high correlation then that would be evidence weighing highly for biological.
    Sexuality is one of those things people aren't always honest about. If raised apart, that is going to skew the data more because one will be in an accepting environment, and be open about it, and the other might not. Nonetheless, this study found .50 correlation - although notably it says this is not as high for lesbians: Science Versus Ideology | American Renaissance

    I think a wide array of human traits has shown to be highly hereditary, looking at twins raised apart, more than we'd like to believe perhaps. I don't see why sexuality would be different. Fraternal twins share the same upbringing too, and the correlation in most studies is closer to 25%. This study indicates 65.8% vs 30.4% concordance (mono vs dizgotic): Pacific Center for Sex and Society - Homosexual Orientation in Twins: A Report on 61 Pairs and Three Triplet Sets

    So again i'm afraid the weight of evidence, and recent studies on hormonal factors like CAH, all leans toward biology and prenatal environment. There have also notably been mothers of twins who've said they were noticeably "different" very early on. How they can do that or whether that's faulty memory on their part, I'm not sure.

  4. #1304
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by johndylan1 View Post
    Thanks for your perspective, from my reading we're not that far off in our views, we just get there through different methods. I am slightly familiar with evolutionary psychology and it's theories but have not done a thourough contemplation. I kind of dismissed it after two thick volumns of info that seemed a bit fanciful to me... btw In the first statement I didn't say sexual attraction, I said attraction.
    Please forgive my misunderstanding Johndy__There are indeed attractions other than "sexual"_

    I just assumed you were referring to sexual attraction because the thread topic is "homosexuality"_

    I personally am attracted to such things as intelligence, honesty and courage; regardless of gender_
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grendel View Post
    "[ . . . ] is considered a mistake of nature_". You're forgetting that it's only you who consider it a mistake of nature. Well, some others, as well, but that doesn't make it a de facto truth. I've shown you earlier that it's more likely a byproduct of nature doing what it does: selecting beneficial traits.
    All abnormal variations are mistakes of nature, regardless of whether they are beneficial or inconsequential to the species_

    If homosexuality was indeed a beneficial variation, it would be flooding the human species with its genetic material by now_

    But homosexuality by its own design does not contribute to the gene pool, making it inconsequential to the human species_

    But the evidence suggests that it is, because, while it carries with it an evolutionary cost, it's the byproduct of something that carries a greater evolutionary advantage.
    I can't imagine what "evolutionary advantage" that might be unless homosexuality was the solution to future overpopulation_

    But that would require homosexuals to be a large enough percentage of the world's population to effect such a change_

    Which is unlikely since homosexuals by design do not reproduce, nor do they naturally reoccur in sufficient numbers_

    Look, I'm not suggesting that nature's mistakes should be left out in the cold to die__I'm not a savage_

    I'm simply saying that homosexuality is obviously a biological/psychological/evolutionary abnormality_

    It may not be the politically correct thing to say or believe, but it is the truth whether we like it or not_

    We're not children__As adults we should be able to discuss tough and sensitive issues honestly without all the sugar-coating_

    As long as it keeps being selected for, you can't presume that it's making no genetic contribution.
    Simply "keeps being selected for" is not an indication of genetic success_

    History has shown nearly all of natures mistakes to be recurring with the only variant being how people react to them_

    Humanity's compassion and acceptance has come a long way but making ridiculous claims could damage those advancements_
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    But homosexuality by its own design does not contribute to the gene pool, making it inconsequential to the human species_
    Not true. Many homosexuals indeed contribute to the gene pool through many methods. Simply because they choose not to make a life with a member of the opposite gender does not automatically mean that they will not breed.

  7. #1307
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    All abnormal variations are mistakes of nature
    "Mistake" is an opinion. It's your opinion, not a fact. Nature can't make "mistakes" because it doesn't have a mind to have an aim and to make decisions so that it can make 'mistaken' decisions. Things happen, and if they're beneficial, they keep happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    If homosexuality was indeed a beneficial variation, it would be flooding the human species with its genetic material by now_

    But homosexuality by its own design does not contribute to the gene pool, making it inconsequential to the human species_

    I can't imagine what "evolutionary advantage" that might be unless homosexuality was the solution to future overpopulation_

    [ . . . ]

    Humanity's compassion and acceptance has come a long way but making ridiculous claims could damage those advancements_
    I already explained this. Current evidence suggests that homosexuality is a byproduct of the same genetic trait that causes the mother to reproduce more -- specifically, at a rate that offsets the evolutionary cost of a gay son. If that's the case, then your idea that homosexuality must be a "mistake" is incorrect, and that's what the current research suggests.

    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    If homosexuality was indeed a beneficial variation, it would be flooding the human species with its genetic material by now_
    Not everything is always beneficial, or always selected for. For example, sickle-cell anemia is selected for because it provides an evolutionary advantage . . . in certain circumstances. Specifically, in areas of dense tropical climate where malaria runs deep. Sickle-cell anemia will kill a person in such an area in about 35 or 40 years, but malaria can kill them in 35 or 40 days. Malaria doesn't grow well in sickle cells. Ergo, having sickle cell anemia provides an evolutionary advantage in those environments.

    That makes sickle cell anemia an evolutionary success, not a 'mistake'. But, at teh same time, it hasn't proliferated all over the world. Genetic evolution just doesn't fit in the simple little box you're trying to put it in. It's far more complicated than that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    Which is unlikely since homosexuals by design do not reproduce, nor do they naturally reoccur in sufficient numbers_
    I'm simply saying that homosexuality is obviously a biological/psychological/evolutionary abnormality_
    Homosexuals may make up as much as 5% of the population. That's significant. Also, it's only an "abnormality" in the mathematical sense; a sense which has no application in this discussion. It occurs, it continues to occur, so it is not a 'mistake'.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    It may not be the politically correct thing to say or believe, but it is the truth whether we like it or not_

    We're not children__As adults we should be able to discuss tough and sensitive issues honestly without all the sugar-coating_
    I'm neither interested in political correctness, nor in 'sugar-coating' anything. You are simply wrong. Current evidence suggests that homosexuality -- or at least it's common cause -- confers an evolutionary benefit on the family where the genetic markers are found. It's only very mildly complex to understand. If you try to force evolution into a simple explanation, then the explanation can be expected to be wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Empirica View Post
    Simply "keeps being selected for" is not an indication of genetic success_
    Um. That's exactly what a genetic success is. That's the entire concept of evolution. Right there.
    "All that stuff I was taught about evolution, embryology, Big Bang theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of hell [the bible] teaches us how to run all our public policy and everything in society." Rep. Paul Broun (R)

  8. #1308
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    I don't see how anyone could honestly argue that sexual orientation is a choice unless they themselves sat down to think about it, determined that they had absolutely no predisposition to any orientation themselves, and decided arbitrarily what orientation they wanted. Has anyone EVER done that? How can anyone be arguing that other people are necessarily making conscious decisions about something they themselves determined by their innate nature? It makes no sense.
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    I don't see how anyone could honestly argue that sexual orientation is a choice unless they themselves sat down to think about it, determined that they had absolutely no predisposition to any orientation themselves, and decided arbitrarily what orientation they wanted. Has anyone EVER done that? How can anyone be arguing that other people are necessarily making conscious decisions about something they themselves determined by their innate nature? It makes no sense.
    There are people who have claimed to have done so (and I believe that there is a thread somewhere way back about one of them) and then there are the people who claim that they know that person better than they know themselves and that the former person must be wrong.

    Now I for one am one of those who makes the conjecture that maybe there are multiple paths to orientation. While I believe that there are those, few though they may be, that can and do make the decision, I do not claim to be one of them. However, given some of the feelings that I have been having lately and given a complete lack of those feelings earlier in life, I do have to wonder about orientation being fixed.

  10. #1310
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    There are people who have claimed to have done so (and I believe that there is a thread somewhere way back about one of them) and then there are the people who claim that they know that person better than they know themselves and that the former person must be wrong.

    Now I for one am one of those who makes the conjecture that maybe there are multiple paths to orientation. While I believe that there are those, few though they may be, that can and do make the decision, I do not claim to be one of them. However, given some of the feelings that I have been having lately and given a complete lack of those feelings earlier in life, I do have to wonder about orientation being fixed.
    I always liken sexual orientation to a person's taste in music. What determines your taste in music? Is it your genes? Is it a choice? Is it learned behavior? It is dependent on what you were exposed to at various formative moments in your life? It is cultural? Or is it all of those things in intricate combinations that we can't really quantify?

    I think sexual orientation is like that. What makes Iron Maiden wonderful to my ears and Justin Beiber unpalatable? What makes another person have the exact opposite reaction? Probably as complex a system as determines our sexuality. Our tastes in music certainly can and do change. But we really can't say why or how. And we certainly shouldn't discriminate against people based on their tastes in music or attempt to "cure" them.
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