View Poll Results: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

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  • Yes

    44 16.99%
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    171 66.02%
  • Maybe/Don't Know

    44 16.99%
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Thread: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

  1. #1291
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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Therein lies the mystery of the mind. And while you are applying an environmental element...I still don't know if I can agree with that. The sizes of fat may differ and the shapes of mustaches my vary.
    True, but the decision on which one is better looking isn't cosmic. Most people know why they are attracted to the type they are attracted to.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    So two boys observe the same thing, one is gay and the other is not, what gives?

    Also what is observed to make him gay?
    Age, previous experiences, different interactions with different people. You cannot tell me, even with twins, even early on in their lives, that they will both experience all the exact same things. There will be variations. These variation can possibility make the difference.

    Who knows? If indeed homosexuality is learned in the early years when we won't have memories of what it was that influenced in one direction or another, do you really think that there is any true way to be able to test that and control all aspect of the subjects lives to ensure control groups and variable groups? It could be various combinations of things. For that matter it may require a certain genetic disposition along with some kind of environmental trigger, be it something physical or something "learned". The possibilities are endless and we don't know enough about us to even begin eliminating even a small fraction of them. For everything we learn more newer questions come up.

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    I thought this was a discussion about sexual orientation, of course attraction can be learned behavior. Sexual orientation is not the same thing.
    Didn't say it was an invalid theory, just that it isn't proven.
    I'm not sure that any of us has put this forth as a given/proven, not even Ram or Onto. They would just go straight choice and not even consider it a non-choice regardless of the actual cause. We're just noting that this is still a possibility and is going to be damn hard to prove OR disprove. There are simply too many variables to control.

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    Attraction may indeed and is often times a learned involuntary behavior. That says nothing of sexual orientation however and therefore says nothing about homosexual orientation being a learned behavior. You are talking about attraction.

    Address orientation, because i do accept that attraction can be learned.
    Please explain the difference between attraction and orientation in this context. Are you saying that I can be sexually attracted to my gender without being homosexual?

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    Our notion of beauty is influenced by our perception of it. If you loved in a nation where fatty women with mustaches were thought to be beautiful than you would limey think that fatty women with mustaches were beautiful. It may not be a choice, but it comes from somewhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    Therein lies the mystery of the mind. And while you are applying an environmental element...I still don't know if I can agree with that. The sizes of fat may differ and the shapes of mustaches my vary.
    And indeed, you can obtain that particular attraction outside of a place where such women abound and/or are considered an ideal of beauty. Anything learned will be an "environmental" factor, RM. I can't see how it would be anything else. It doesn't matter whether it's learned consciously or unconsciously.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    True, but the decision on which one is better looking isn't cosmic. Most people know why they are attracted to the type they are attracted to.
    I don't. I know I'm attracted to Redheads, East Asian women, older women, and women who have at least enough meat on their bones that I'm not counting ribs. And while I can look at Playboy Bunny types as wank fodder, I really don't have much attraction to them. I know what I am attracted to, I just don't know why. And I really doubt that most people know why. Do you know why you are attracted to the type of person your husband is?

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Age, previous experiences, different interactions with different people. You cannot tell me, even with twins, even early on in their lives, that they will both experience all the exact same things. There will be variations. These variation can possibility make the difference.
    So experience is the only factor? Personality plays no role?
    Who knows? If indeed homosexuality is learned in the early years when we won't have memories of what it was that influenced in one direction or another, do you really think that there is any true way to be able to test that and control all aspect of the subjects lives to ensure control groups and variable groups? It could be various combinations of things. For that matter it may require a certain genetic disposition along with some kind of environmental trigger, be it something physical or something "learned". The possibilities are endless and we don't know enough about us to even begin eliminating even a small fraction of them. For everything we learn more newer questions come up.
    Finally you are making sense. We don't know, that was my only point. Some obscure occurrence in childhood seems highly unlikely.


    I'm not sure that any of us has put this forth as a given/proven, not even Ram or Onto. They would just go straight choice and not even consider it a non-choice regardless of the actual cause. We're just noting that this is still a possibility and is going to be damn hard to prove OR disprove. There are simply too many variables to control.
    I wasn't saying anything to counter this point. Just that someone thinking something isn't enough.


    Please explain the difference between attraction and orientation in this context. Are you saying that I can be sexually attracted to my gender without being homosexual?
    or bisexual, precisely. That is what that word means. If you are sexually attracted to members of your own gender you are homosexual or bisexual. That is what it means. Otherwise those words mean nothing.

    attraction is desire of appearance, personality, other things of such. Orientation is the position of something or someone especially oneself.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    I don't. I know I'm attracted to Redheads, East Asian women, older women, and women who have at least enough meat on their bones that I'm not counting ribs. And while I can look at Playboy Bunny types as wank fodder, I really don't have much attraction to them. I know what I am attracted to, I just don't know why. And I really doubt that most people know why. Do you know why you are attracted to the type of person your husband is?
    Well just because you are not very introspective doesn't mean most people aren't.

    I know exactly why i am attracted to my husband. I have no type, my various past lovers have very little in common. I am not attracted to a "type", i don't believe there is a type of people. People can have similar characteristics, but I don't buy a such thing as a type.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    Well just because you are not very introspective doesn't mean most people aren't.

    I know exactly why i am attracted to my husband. I have no type, my various past lovers have very little in common. I am not attracted to a "type", i don't believe there is a type of people. People can have similar characteristics, but I don't buy a such thing as a type.
    Hold on you just said:
    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    True, but the decision on which one is better looking isn't cosmic. Most people know why they are attracted to the type they are attracted to.
    I find those two statements to be rather confusing if not contradictory. And let's be honest. Do you really think that in today's world most people are very introspective? Some days I really have to wonder.

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    or bisexual, precisely. That is what that word means. If you are sexually attracted to members of your own gender you are homosexual or bisexual. That is what it means. Otherwise those words mean nothing.

    attraction is desire of appearance, personality, other things of such. Orientation is the position of something or someone especially oneself.
    I'm confused. I'm attracted to my own gender so I am homo- or bi-sexual. Homosexual and bisexual are orientations, not attractions. So I have an attraction but it's not an attraction because it's an orientation?

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Age, previous experiences, different interactions with different people. You cannot tell me, even with twins, even early on in their lives, that they will both experience all the exact same things. There will be variations. These variation can possibility make the difference.
    But the studies on identical twins suggests as high as a 50% correlation, so that's clearly a biological component. I'm not sure what the significance is of claiming something as "learned" at an early age (5 years at latest, if you consider the studies). In my experience with this topic, when people start throwing around "learned," "choice," "environment," it's about assigning blame and saying it can be "unlearned" - as johndylan1 has been doing for a while now.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by CLAX1911 View Post
    True, but the decision on which one is better looking isn't cosmic. Most people know why they are attracted to the type they are attracted to.
    People might know what...but not why. I really dig the olive skinned, black eyes, dark hair...yadda, yadda, yadda. But in the end...I would "NOT" truly be able to tell you why. I can say something to the effect that ice blue eyes turn me on...or honey blond, yadda, yadda...but if I really and truly try to express where it comes from. I don't think I can.

    edited: Added the word "NOT"
    Last edited by Removable Mind; 09-24-13 at 11:50 PM.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by chromium View Post
    But the studies on identical twins suggests as high as a 50% correlation, so that's clearly a biological component. I'm not sure what the significance is of claiming something as "learned" at an early age (5 years at latest, if you consider the studies). In my experience with this topic, when people start throwing around "learned," "choice," "environment," it's about assigning blame and saying it can be "unlearned" - as johndylan1 has been doing for a while now.
    Well I am not going to be one for claiming "unlearn-able". If this is a possibility (and I'm one who believe in multiple sources for orientations) then it seems to be so ingrained that it would be next to impossible to unlearn it, or more accurately to learn something else to override it. What is the correlation on identical twins raised separately and then is there any difference in correlation that seems to vary with length of time separated? While I myself had noted that even identical twins would not share the exact same experiences growing up, they would indeed share many. Given that we don't know what combination of factors would cause the tip in one direction or the other, it is logical that there would be times when both twins would end up with the same orientation and times when they wouldn't. If they shared no experiences together and there was still a high correlation then that would be evidence weighing highly for biological.

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    Re: Is Homosexuality A Choice?

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Age, previous experiences, different interactions with different people. You cannot tell me, even with twins, even early on in their lives, that they will both experience all the exact same things. There will be variations. These variation can possibility make the difference.

    Who knows? If indeed homosexuality is learned in the early years when we won't have memories of what it was that influenced in one direction or another, do you really think that there is any true way to be able to test that and control all aspect of the subjects lives to ensure control groups and variable groups? It could be various combinations of things. For that matter it may require a certain genetic disposition along with some kind of environmental trigger, be it something physical or something "learned". The possibilities are endless and we don't know enough about us to even begin eliminating even a small fraction of them. For everything we learn more newer questions come up.



    I'm not sure that any of us has put this forth as a given/proven, not even Ram or Onto. They would just go straight choice and not even consider it a non-choice regardless of the actual cause. We're just noting that this is still a possibility and is going to be damn hard to prove OR disprove. There are simply too many variables to control.



    Please explain the difference between attraction and orientation in this context. Are you saying that I can be sexually attracted to my gender without being homosexual?





    And indeed, you can obtain that particular attraction outside of a place where such women abound and/or are considered an ideal of beauty. Anything learned will be an "environmental" factor, RM. I can't see how it would be anything else. It doesn't matter whether it's learned consciously or unconsciously.
    I disagree. Socialization is just what it is. If you're implying that while in Rome...

    We may be forced to accept our small world...but that doesn't mean we aren't capable of a feeling or experiencing a greater attraction totally different and completely outside our environment.

    Just because we haven't been there...where ever there is...doesn't mean that's not what we might ultimately be attracted to.

    I haven't smoked a doobie in many years and everything I just wrote....is almost like I have been. But we simply don't learn an attraction.

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