View Poll Results: Patriot, Traitor, or something else?

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  • Traitor (Elaborate)

    19 31.67%
  • Patriot (Elaborate)

    25 41.67%
  • Other (Elaborate)

    12 20.00%
  • I don't know

    4 6.67%
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Thread: Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

  1. #51
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    Glen Contrarian's Avatar
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    Re: Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Then you are an authoritarian person who hates civil and human rights, as simple as that.

    This "national security" nonsense to justify the most blatant violations of Western values is right from the Nazis' playbook, and people who swallow it will swallow it in any random other case of violation too. And no, this is not godwinning anything. In this case, it is 100% true and absolutely appropriate.

    A government that will break the law to spy on the private communication of its citizens will randomly arrest people too, will deny their people fair trials, will enact labor and death camps too -- unless the people stops them. And no, "fighting a foreign enemy" is no excuse (it wasn't valid either when the Nazis used that in 1933).
    Read my FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE in #46 above - PRISM, had it been in place in 2000, could have prevented 9/11 and all the American insanity that resulted from it - including our illegal and unprovoked invasion of Iraq.

  2. #52
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    Re: Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    Point taken, but was that even a first step taken in this case?
    Well let us first look at the matter generally. What would the next logical step be? Going to the media?

    Following that, we can put Snowden into context. Perhaps he already knew that such a road was futile, and so he chose to skip it and go straight to the media. Then again, I don't know enough about this whole affair to know whether or not he tried going through the usual channels first.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  3. #53
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    Re: Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Read my FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE in #46 above - PRISM, had it been in place in 2000, could have prevented 9/11 and all the American insanity that resulted from it - including our illegal and unprovoked invasion of Iraq.
    This is all speculation.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  4. #54
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    Re: Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Read my FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE in #46 above - PRISM, had it been in place in 2000, could have prevented 9/11 and all the American insanity that resulted from it - including our illegal and unprovoked invasion of Iraq.
    Privacy of correspondence is a basic civil right. NOTHING justifies the government violating it. And certainly, the ends never justify the means. Since there is electronic communication, they're maybe abusing a legal loophole according to which emails are not snail mail letters -- which doesn't make it any less heinous.

    If the price for security is abandoning basic civil rights, such as privacy of correspondence, that price is too high. I'd rather accept a greater danger of terrorism or crime, than allowing the government reading my private mails without very good reason and substantial evidence against me.

    And by the way, if you were a non-Jewish German, life was much, much more safe and secure for you in Nazi Germany, as "private" crime (not by the government) was virtually non-existant -- does that mean this system was superior? I beg to differ.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  5. #55
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    Re: Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by captainawesome View Post
    We are as corrupt as the old Soviet Union.
    Nothing like that.
    "We have more responsibility than power, I think. The newspaper can create great controversies, stir up arguments within the community or discussion, can throw light on injustices....just as it can do the opposite. It can hide things and be a great power for evil." -- Rupert Murdoch, 1968

  6. #56
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    Re: Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Basten View Post
    Nothing like that.
    We have secret police and prisons and torture. We are just like them now.

  7. #57
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    Re: Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by captainawesome View Post
    We have secret police and prisons and torture. We are just like them now.
    Where is this secret police?

    No, we are nothing like the Soviet Union. Enough with the theatrics.
    "We have more responsibility than power, I think. The newspaper can create great controversies, stir up arguments within the community or discussion, can throw light on injustices....just as it can do the opposite. It can hide things and be a great power for evil." -- Rupert Murdoch, 1968

  8. #58
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    Re: Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Basten View Post
    Where is this secret police?

    No, we are nothing like the Soviet Union. Enough with the theatrics.
    They are secret how would I know where they are.

    We have secret prisons to waterboard. We can be held with no charges forever. We are just like the old Soviet Union.

  9. #59
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    Re: Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by CRUE CAB View Post
    Says the guy from Canada.
    The man is a criminal. Theft of information is just as big a deal as if I stole a truck at work.
    Its still a crime and due to the fact that US secret info was what he stole, he is a traitor to his nation.
    I hope he is found, brought back, given a fair trial and if convicted, sent to the gallows.
    What does my nationality have to do with the validity of my comments? Based on your first sentence, the balance of your post isn't worth looking at.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  10. #60
    Whoa, daddy!
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    Re: Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Contrarian View Post
    Snowden is a traitor. Three weeks before the USS Abraham Lincoln deployed in August 2000, my office - the Security office - got a phone call from someone with a foreign-sounding voice who said that when we pulled into port overseas, they would blow up a ship next to ours. We pulled in to Dubai in early October - we were nervous and kept an eye on everything, but nothing happened. Four days after we departed Dubai, the USS Cole was bombed by a boat that pulled up next to it. In other words, that person knew something...and if we'd had PRISM then, not only would we have found the individual on short order, but we'd have found all those he had contact with...and one of those who helped plan the bombing of the Cole turned out to be one of the 9/11 hijackers. PRISM could have prevented 9/11, if we'd had it then, and by extension could have prevented the decade of right-wing neo-con insanity (and 5000 American military deaths and 100K+ Iraqi deaths) that followed.
    PRISM didn't seem to prevent the Boston bombing.
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Hah. If someone put me in their sig, I'd never know. I have sigs off.

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