• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

Patriot, Traitor, or something else?

  • Traitor (Elaborate)

    Votes: 12 25.0%

  • Patriot (Elaborate)

    Votes: 21 43.8%

  • Other (Elaborate)

    Votes: 12 25.0%

  • I don't know

    Votes: 3 6.3%
  • Total voters
    48
  • Poll closed .
CRUE CAB said:
Says the guy from Canada.
The man is a criminal. Theft of information is just as big a deal as if I stole a truck at work.
Its still a crime and due to the fact that US secret info was what he stole, he is a traitor to his nation.
I hope he is found, brought back, given a fair trial and if convicted, sent to the gallows.
Click to expand...

What information did he thieve?
 
CanadaJohn said:
As a conservative, I can vouch that for at least one person that's just nonsense. It is perhaps the most liberal ideologue in a half century who sits in the White House who has expanded this program without apparent concern and it is the liberals of your country who are enforcing their sexual morality, as it relates to gay marriage and access to abortion etc., on your society.
Click to expand...

Gays want equality under the law. The right wing wants them second class.

The right passed the patriot act.
 
polgara said:
Good afternoon, CJ! :2wave:

Ah, the life of a whistleblower can take many unseen twists and turns, can't it? Too bad, because he apparently did the public a service by letting the light of day shine on what was going on in secret! :doh: :argue:
Click to expand...

Good afternoon Lady P - oppressively humid here in the northeast and it's not planning on easing until late this week - hope it's nicer for you down in Texas.
 
Look at Padilla (who is NO hero) and how they disappeared him without much visibility. They can detain you indefinitely (ask anybody at Guantanamo) and you could stay in the system for decades which is the same as being convicted.

The Patriot Act gives the government some really abusable powers. If it were me, I would not take a chance. Let me ask you - if Snowden returns voluntarily, he would not technically be a flight risk since he came back on his own - do you think he would be allowed a modest bail while waiting for trial? Or would they lock him up and delay the trial for 50 years for "security reasons"?

I'm just discussing, not accusing. Personally, I don't trust the USG at all. Since 2001, our government has been furtive and harsh using 9/11 as an excuse for many things that were never previously accepted. We've become torturers and aggressors. Our current President has actually managed to be even less transparent than his not very nice predecessor.

Let them try him in absentia. Then, there is a case for his surrender. There won't be a trial. This seems to be about revenge, not national security. It had to come out eventually. I don't know why they even tried tio be secretive. Its not like anybody can or will do anything about it. Look how righteous they are acting "sure we spy on you but we magically stopped 50 terrorist plots. We just failed to mention that we did this because we're too modest to take credit". Mmmmm, right. Modesty. Of course.


(all the above is pure opinion. No facts were harmed in the production of this post:))



CanadaJohn said:
I agree with much of what you've said but I have to disagree that Snowden would have been buried somewhere and never gotten a trial - even a person accused of treason in America has the right to a public, jury trial and the many civil liberties organizations in America and the Supreme Court would see to it.
Click to expand...
 
RabidAlpaca said:
And yet something being a law doesn't make it just. If the government were torturing children in dark rooms, and you knew about it, would you keep it to yourself because you don't want to become a criminal by revealing it?
Click to expand...

I'd report it to my superiors. If nothing seemed to happen based on that, I'd report it to the Inspector General's office. If still it seemed nothing happened with it, I'd leak it to the population anonymously so as to make sure the attrocities being commited where the story, not myself, since I wouldn't be doing it with the hope of being famous or going down as some kind of prolific "leaker".
 
captainawesome said:
Gays want equality under the law. The right wing wants them second class.

The right passed the patriot act.
Click to expand...

Sorry to disabuse you of your "facts" - congress adopted the Patriot Act and Bush signed it - congress then renewed it, with amendments, and Obama signed it. The act as it currently stands was adopted by a Democrat congress and signed by a Democrat President.

I would never argue that the left isn't capable of abusing any good government idea when they get the chance.

As for gay marriage - President Clinton signed DOMA and it was President Clinton who instituted Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

Democrats don't have a stellar record when it comes to advancing gay rights - but I will acknowledge that religious conservatives strongly oppose what is basically a religious rite being co-opted by government but even then, most have no objection to the equality part, they just don't want "traditional marriage" trashed in the process.

I won't respond again related to these issues since they're not related to the thread - I simply did so because you attached the issues to my comments and I had to respond.
 
For those who haven't noticed, we currently have a "liberal" President. So, trying to pin this on the RW makes no sense at all.

I consider myself unaffiliated although I generally support socially liberal positions such as SSM and I accept abortion even though I think it is morally dubious. But in many ways Obama is as bad as or worse than Bush when it comes to "national security" and government powers. I voted for this guy in 2008 but not in 2012. He's shown his colors (so to speak:roll:)
 
specklebang said:
For those who haven't noticed, we currently have a "liberal" President. So, trying to pin this on the RW makes no sense at all.

I consider myself unaffiliated although I generally support socially liberal positions such as SSM and I accept abortion even though I think it is morally dubious. But in many ways Obama is as bad as or worse than Bush when it comes to "national security" and government powers. I voted for this guy in 2008 but not in 2012. He's shown his colors (so to speak:roll:)
Click to expand...

Yes Obama is just Bush 2
 
Your first paragraph I do agree with up to a point.

Your second paragraph is nonsense. The Patriot Act was embraced and tongue-kissed by Obama and his party just as Bush did with his. This is bi-partisan oppression.


captainawesome said:
Gays want equality under the law. The right wing wants them second class.

The right passed the patriot act.
Click to expand...
 
CanadaJohn said:
Good afternoon Lady P - oppressively humid here in the northeast and it's not planning on easing until late this week - hope it's nicer for you down in Texas.
Click to expand...

As near as I can ascertain, Houston is really just a very large steamroom that just happens to have a name due to the size of its population! The only time people are not uncomfortable is if they're outdoors between the hours of 0100 and 0500! There's a breeze then, I'm told..... :lamo:
 
Zyphlin said:
I'd report it to my superiors. If nothing seemed to happen based on that, I'd report it to the Inspector General's office. If still it seemed nothing happened with it, I'd leak it to the population anonymously so as to make sure the attrocities being commited where the story, not myself, since I wouldn't be doing it with the hope of being famous or going down as some kind of prolific "leaker".
Click to expand...

You forgot the step of going to your congressmen, which is protected and would also keep you safe from reprisals.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
I can see some of your point but there are avenues to "blow the whistle" to your congress critter or perhaps those on the House/Senate intellegence committees. There is ample light being shined on this (and similar) programs within congress now. The unilateral decision to leak classified data directly to the public (and world in general) is not a logical "first step".
Click to expand...

It is absolutely the first and correct step when Senate Investigating Committees led by my only representation, an elected official, is blatantly lied to by the leaders of the Intelligence Agencies in Question. That would be Clapper and McCullough lying to Wyden and Udall. The ample light you are talking about does not exist and we wouldn't know anything if it hadn't been for Snowden. Thank you Snowden. Prosecute Clapper and McCullough. When you lie to my Congressional leaders, you lie to the American Public, and should be prosecuted for perjury. This isn't complicated enough to even have to discuss, is it?
 
captainawesome said:
Gays want equality under the law. The right wing wants them second class.

The right passed the patriot act.
Click to expand...

Ever hear the phrase about painting with too broad a brush?
 
Zyphlin said:
I'd report it to my superiors. If nothing seemed to happen based on that, I'd report it to the Inspector General's office. If still it seemed nothing happened with it, I'd leak it to the population anonymously so as to make sure the attrocities being commited where the story, not myself, since I wouldn't be doing it with the hope of being famous or going down as some kind of prolific "leaker".
Click to expand...

- His superiors knew about it. Did you think his peers were in charge of the program? If he brought it up, he likely would've been told to stfu. When has whining about something ever made the military / government change their minds? "Oh, I see, Snowden, this IS wrong, thank you. We'll stop immediately."

- The IG doesn't have the clearance for something like that, and seeing as how it was in a legal grey area, they likely wouldn't have done anything.

- I'm not aware of how they found out it was him, but I'm willing to bet he tried to not get caught. His life is a living hell. That's the kind of fame you don't want.

Redress said:
You forgot the step of going to your congressmen, which is protected and would also keep you safe from reprisals.
Click to expand...

Exposing classified information to a senator without the clearance for that information, is still the exact same crime, and there's little a single senator could do when the wolves come a knocking. That's simply not an option on something like that.
 
Zyphlin said:
I'd report it to my superiors. If nothing seemed to happen based on that, I'd report it to the Inspector General's office. If still it seemed nothing happened with it, I'd leak it to the population anonymously so as to make sure the attrocities being commited where the story, not myself, since I wouldn't be doing it with the hope of being famous or going down as some kind of prolific "leaker".
Click to expand...


Wrong! Same reply as to twt. You can't ignore these liars, Congress and attempts to investigate.
"It is absolutely the first and correct step when Senate Investigating Committees led by my only representation, an elected official, is blatantly lied to by the leaders of the Intelligence Agencies in Question. That would be Clapper and McCullough lying to Wyden and Udall. The ample light you are talking about does not exist and we wouldn't know anything if it hadn't been for Snowden. Thank you Snowden. Prosecute Clapper and McCullough. When you lie to my Congressional leaders, you lie to the American Public, and should be prosecuted for perjury. This isn't complicated enough to even have to discuss, is it? "
 
This is in the wrong thread. Plus, I doubt they are against "liberty". They are against mariage. I don't agree (I favor SSM) but you imply they want to lock up homosexuals and thats quite a stretch. Certainly has nothing to do with our topic.






captainawesome said:
I have, but in this case it is true the right wing are against liberty and equality for homosexuals.
Click to expand...
 
Zyphlin said:
I'd report it to my superiors. If nothing seemed to happen based on that, I'd report it to the Inspector General's office. If still it seemed nothing happened with it, I'd leak it to the population anonymously so as to make sure the attrocities being commited where the story, not myself, since I wouldn't be doing it with the hope of being famous or going down as some kind of prolific "leaker".
Click to expand...

I feel like that would be brushed off as a conspiracy theory. Who believes an anonymous source?
 
Patriot.

“The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them.”
Patrick Henry
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom