View Poll Results: Patriot, Traitor, or something else?

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  • Traitor (Elaborate)

    19 31.67%
  • Patriot (Elaborate)

    25 41.67%
  • Other (Elaborate)

    12 20.00%
  • I don't know

    4 6.67%
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Thread: Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

  1. #221
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    Re: Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhat View Post
    The NSA's activities are programs created by law, supervised by the judicial system and implemented by the executive branch- that's checks and balances. We can argue the morality of something, but morality and legality are different terms. Snowden violated the law and is therefore now a fugitive. He is no whistleblower for he neither followed protocol to classify as one; nor did he expose illegal activities.

    I'm not ok with anything per se; am simply being rational. In the age of digital communications one can reasonably expect the NSA's activities to fall within their domain and area of operations. The collection and analyzing of information in this case is SIGINT, an intelligence discipline as old as communications- we're no longer listening thru walls, we just pickup fragments of data and try to piece together what is happening.

    Corporations do this all the time; it's called advertising. Google reads your email in order to place an ad; Groupon reads your phone's GPS to get you a discount, all are examples of data mining thru the use of technology. The NSA isn't trying to listen or read your communications to sell you something, they're trying to find the next crazy guy plotting harm to the US and our interest... That's what they were created to do. What do you think they do, play Xbox with the Russians??

    Governments are always spying on one another; it's a tradecraft worthy of its own thread, and yes, in the process of implementing policy we do things that some men would find immoral: we've helped overthrow governments, even democratically elected ones (Guatemala, Iran etc); create insurrections in foreign lands; recruit foreign spies to steal information for is etc. We may even rendition unlawful combatants into obscurity, sometimes they may even get treated questionably, if not by us, but by those we outsource these tasks to. All of these things can be classified as shadowy, immoral and even unethical, but within the context of global balance of power these are but necessary evils needed to preserve the status quo that so favorably affords the feeble minded people who question the very existence of such structure, the freedom to exist and question it. That's the irony; people don't appreciate what it takes to keep the spokes attached to the wheel. It's not pretty, it's not glamorous, but someone must do it.

    People like Snowden have betrayed the very system that has afforded him the luxury of taking a breath and in the process has harmed the work of thousands of well intended people.

    He is, and will always be a coward. He has no backbone to speak off.
    Excellent post.
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  2. #222
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    Re: Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhat View Post
    The NSA's activities are programs created by law, supervised by the judicial system and implemented by the executive branch- that's checks and balances. We can argue the morality of something, but morality and legality are different terms. Snowden violated the law and is therefore now a fugitive. He is no whistleblower for he neither followed protocol to classify as one; nor did he expose illegal activities.

    I'm not ok with anything per se; am simply being rational. In the age of digital communications one can reasonably expect the NSA's activities to fall within their domain and area of operations. The collection and analyzing of information in this case is SIGINT, an intelligence discipline as old as communications- we're no longer listening thru walls, we just pickup fragments of data and try to piece together what is happening.
    What the NSA was doing violates the Fourth Amendment.

    I don't care if you agree or not...because it does.

    NSA surveillance may be legal — but it’s unconstitutional - The Washington Post

    Corporations do this all the time; it's called advertising. Google reads your email in order to place an ad; Groupon reads your phone's GPS to get you a discount, all are examples of data mining thru the use of technology. The NSA isn't trying to listen or read your communications to sell you something, they're trying to find the next crazy guy plotting harm to the US and our interest... That's what they were created to do. What do you think they do, play Xbox with the Russians??


    What Google does is completely voluntary. If you don't like it - don't use Google.

    The NSA gives you no such choice AND it breaks the Fourth Amendment (not to mention being just plain wrong, IMO).

    And where is your link to unbiased factual proof that the NSA are not listening to or reading personal communications of large groups of random, law biding Americans?

    If you cannot prove it, then you cannot rightly claim that you know they are not doing it.

    Governments are always spying on one another; it's a tradecraft worthy of its own thread, and yes, in the process of implementing policy we do things that some men would find immoral: we've helped overthrow governments, even democratically elected ones (Guatemala, Iran etc); create insurrections in foreign lands; recruit foreign spies to steal information for is etc. We may even rendition unlawful combatants into obscurity, sometimes they may even get treated questionably, if not by us, but by those we outsource these tasks to. All of these things can be classified as shadowy, immoral and even unethical, but within the context of global balance of power these are but necessary evils needed to preserve the status quo that so favorably affords the feeble minded people who question the very existence of such structure, the freedom to exist and question it. That's the irony; people don't appreciate what it takes to keep the spokes attached to the wheel. It's not pretty, it's not glamorous, but someone must do it.
    Prove it.

    Prove all these things are 'necessary' and that 'someone must do it'.

    And not because some government minion says it is.

    Or some biased think tank or private citizen, minion-wannabe says it is.

    Show it with links to UNBIASED, factual data that proves that all of these things are 'necessary' and 'must' be done?

    Guess what?

    You can't.

    People like Snowden have betrayed the very system that has afforded him the luxury of taking a breath and in the process has harmed the work of thousands of well intended people.
    Good...the system sucks right now. It needs to be betrayed and betrayed and betrayed again..until it becomes the defender of freedom and not the defender of cowards who think it fine to violate innocent people's rights just so they can feel a little safer.

    The minute you start violating innocent people's rights out of fear of terrorism...the terrorists have won.

    He is, and will always be a coward. He has no backbone to speak off.
    You cannot know what he will feel or do in the future..so you cannot know what he will or will not be.

    You can guess, hope or believe...but you CANNOT know.


    Finally, if this is the only way America can survive;

    to torture people (or ship them to a nation that will), to lock the innocent up forever without charge, to commit acts of war by bombing other nations whenever the government wants, to assasinate fellow Americans on the POTUS's whim without trial, to detain Americans without trial indefinitely, to spy on ANY American at ANY time without a warrant, and so on.

    If this is the only way America can survive...then let it die.

    The land of honor and bravery is becoming the land of cruelty and cowardice.

    I would rather run a far greater risk of being blown up by a terrorist then live in the society that America is turning into.


    'It's better to be dead and cool, then alive and uncool'

    Amen.
    Last edited by DA60; 06-28-13 at 05:03 AM.

  3. #223
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    Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    What the NSA was doing violates the Fourth Amendment.

    I don't care if you agree or not...because it does.

    NSA surveillance may be legal ó but itís unconstitutional - The Washington Post



    What Google does is completely voluntary. If you don't like it - don't use Google.

    The NSA gives you no such choice AND it breaks the Fourth Amendment (not to mention being just plain wrong, IMO).

    And where is your link to unbiased factual proof that the NSA are not listening to or reading personal communications of large groups of random, law biding Americans?

    If you cannot prove it, then you cannot rightly claim that you know they are not doing it.

    Prove it.

    Prove all these things are 'necessary' and that 'someone must do it'.

    And not because some government minion says it is.

    Or some biased think tank or private citizen, minion-wannabe says it is.

    Show it with links to UNBIASED, factual data that proves that all of these things are 'necessary' and 'must' be done?

    Guess what?

    You can't.

    Good...the system sucks right now. It needs to be betrayed and betrayed and betrayed again..until it becomes the defender of freedom and not the defender of cowards who think it fine to violate innocent people's rights just so they can feel a little safer.

    The minute you start violating innocent people's rights out of fear of terrorism...the terrorists have won.



    You cannot know what he will feel or do in the future..so you cannot know what he will or will not be.

    You can guess, hope or believe...but you CANNOT know.


    Finally, if this is the only way America can survive;

    to torture people (or ship them to a nation that will), to lock the innocent up forever without charge, to commit acts of war by bombing other nations whenever the government wants, to assasinate fellow Americans on the POTUS's whim without trial, to detain Americans without trial indefinitely, to spy on ANY American at ANY time without a warrant, and so on.

    If this is the only way America can survive...then let it die.

    The land of honor and bravery is becoming the land of cruelty and cowardice.

    I would rather run a far greater risk of being blown up by a terrorist then live in the society that America is turning into.


    'It's better to be dead and cool, then alive and uncool'

    Amen.
    The NSA's activities do not violate the fourth amendment even if that deals with unreasonable search and seizure (amongst other things). The collection of metadata doesn't fall within that because once you hit "send" that communication now goes thru a third party (you're ISP) and is therefore not covered. See Rehberg vs Paulk (SCOTUS). Am sure scores of lawyers put a lot of thought into whether this would or would not be constitutional as the program was created, supervised and executed; well unless you think the system is just one big rogue outfit designed to trample on your precious rights... LOL. In that case no amount of facts can cure stupidity.

    You're right, using google is voluntary- and so is living in the United States, if you don't like it- leave...if you don't like your electronic communications to "possibly" be monitored then don't use a cell phone, email, the interment etc- problem solved for you.

    Ah, the old argument of "prove it", LMFAOL. The burden of proof falls on those who raise a grievance- so YOU prove that they are! In a world of conspiracy theories and Evil Big Brother boogie men, no amount of proof would suffice anyways. You'd just claim the proof is made up; it's like arguing with a wall...

    You're claims of what the US Gov is so evil it must come down is just plain stupid, and total BS. According to your analysis that the system sucks- well then that means it always has! Where were you during American History class? Where were you during World History?!

    You don't live in some fantasy world where everyone loves and respect each other and we all just sit around singing peace songs LMFAOL the ignorance must have you high!

    In this world there is and has always been conflict for it is a human condition; therefore, those with power, regardless of how it is attained, must do what they have to in order to preserve the status quo. All civilizations across time have done so, and will continue to do so. If the sun sets on American power then it will rise on others and there is no guarantee that it would be any better than under our current system.

    All this ideological freedom BS is just that- a big non-sense pile of BS- you have no right to privacy on the Internet- Get over it! It's a myth, like the unicorn!

    The world is a big nasty and dangerous neighborhood, be glad you live on the best street!!

  4. #224
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    Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Oh and one more thing:
    When 9-11 happened everyone was up in arms that the intel agencies failed us; Bush didn't see it coming, Clinton knew and did nothing, Reagan funded them etc etc. Congress, in listening to our grievances, created the mechanisms by which these programs came to be and now people whine and complaint! There is no crystal ball; there are endless amounts of information and good hearted Americans trying to understand it to keep us safe from harm. That's what we've asked them to do; arrogant FK'tards like Snowden have to basis by which to supersede and entire system.

    For all we know, the guy could be a recruited source anyhow. Am sure some knuckleheads thought that Aldrich and Hanssen were also nice guys looking to expose big brother LOL. Who knows, maybe he was compromised at some point during his oversees travels and given his personal vulnerabilities, but technical capabilities, strategically planted to carry out espionage against us. There's probably more than meets the eye.

  5. #225
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    Re: Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhat View Post
    Oh and one more thing:
    When 9-11 happened everyone was up in arms that the intel agencies failed us; Bush didn't see it coming, Clinton knew and did nothing, Reagan funded them etc etc. Congress, in listening to our grievances, created the mechanisms by which these programs came to be and now people whine and complaint! There is no crystal ball; there are endless amounts of information and good hearted Americans trying to understand it to keep us safe from harm. That's what we've asked them to do; arrogant FK'tards like Snowden have to basis by which to supersede and entire system.

    For all we know, the guy could be a recruited source anyhow. Am sure some knuckleheads thought that Aldrich and Hanssen were also nice guys looking to expose big brother LOL. Who knows, maybe he was compromised at some point during his oversees travels and given his personal vulnerabilities, but technical capabilities, strategically planted to carry out espionage against us. There's probably more than meets the eye.
    The Intel Agencies did not fail us on 9-11. We were warned by Russia, Israel, France and Germany. The CIA delivered the August PDB, Ashcroft would not fly civilian airways, and what more could have been required of intel? An absolute failure of executive management.

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    Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    The Intel Agencies did not fail us on 9-11. We were warned by Russia, Israel, France and Germany. The CIA delivered the August PDB, Ashcroft would not fly civilian airways, and what more could have been required of intel? An absolute failure of executive management.
    The point is that people were upset and whined that this occurred.
    Last edited by greyhat; 06-28-13 at 09:38 AM.

  7. #227
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    Re: Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    When you choose to break the law, you are a criminal.
    Ok...let's pretend for a moment that Snowden IS a traitor. Now the Bill of Rights are basically laws for our government, correct? So, by spying on citizens without warrants...our government officials are breaking the law and are thus traitors.

  8. #228
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    Is Edward Snowden a traitor or a patriot?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Liberty View Post
    Ok...let's pretend for a moment that Snowden IS a traitor. Now the Bill of Rights are basically laws for our government, correct? So, by spying on citizens without warrants...our government officials are breaking the law and are thus traitors.
    That's only assumes you have a "right" to privacy on the Internet and through the electronic spectrum, neither of which is true.

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