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Thread: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

  1. #621
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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    The legal nightmare it would present, as well as societal standards and customs.
    Is the purpose of the law to protect liberty or enforce societal standards and customs?

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Wrote this back in 2009:
    I managed to reduce your wall of text down to these ten points:
    1. Monogamy is justified because it can be defined by sexual orientation.
    2. Polygamy is unjustified because it cannot be defined by sexual orientation.
    3. Love alone is not enough to justify marriage, it must also benefit the state.
    4. State support of monogamy benefits the state because it benefits children.
    5. State support of monogamy benefits the state because it makes families happy, productive, and commited.
    6. Poligamous relationships have social hierarchies.
    7. It's impossible to avoid rivalry and jealosy in social hierarchies.
    8. Jealousy and rivalry lead to adultery and harm to children.
    9. Adultery is the #1 cause of divorse.
    10. Research shows that monogamy is beneficial while polygamy is detrimental.
    Regarding points 1. and 2., why does marriage have to be definable by sexual orientation?

    Regarding points 3., 4., and 5., if love alone is not enough to justify marriage; if marriage can only benefit the state by somehow benefiting children, then the only people who should ever be married are parents.

    Regarding points 6. through 9., not true at all. People can be jeolous without malace. As long as every member of a polygamous marraige knows their place and accepts it, there is no rivalry. If they can't accept it, then it's time for them to divorse themselves from the family.

    Regarding point 10, also not true.
    The Three Reasons for Polygamy
    The paradox of polygamy I: Why most Americans are polygamous
    The paradox of polygamy II: Why most women benefit from polygamy and most men benefit from monogamy
    Last edited by SapphireSpire; 07-07-13 at 02:07 PM.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by SapphireSpire View Post
    Is the purpose of the law to protect liberty or enforce societal standards and customs?
    Polygamy isn't liberty, it's a frivolity.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Seriously, the fact that you used The Onion as a source shows that your sources are trash and are not evidence of anything.
    Figures. You conveniently ignored the follow up edit post.
    Last edited by Dooble; 07-07-13 at 10:08 PM.

  5. #625
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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    NOt sure how I missed this but since it was brought up by SapphireSpire I took at look at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Wrote this back in 2009:

    First. let us take a look at the difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals. The striking difference is obvious. Homosexuals have a sexual orientation towards those of the same sex, whereas heterosexuals have a sexual orientation towards those of the opposite sex. Why would a heterosexual woman want to marry a man? Sexual orientation. Why would a homosexual man want to marry a man? Sexual orientation. Clearly, from an individual standpoint, this is a, if not the main reason for one wanting to marry a specific other. Love, attraction, emotion. Now, this does not justify gay marriage being validated, and, in fact is a weak argument that I never make. Love, attraction, and emotion does not benefit the state, which is why marriage exists. However, polygamy does not fit well in the criteria that I have identified. There is no polygamous sexual orientation. Polygamy is, typically, a heterosexual orientation, covered already. However, being that there is no polygamous sexual orientation, using this, a mainstay of the individual reason for marriage, will not work or apply. Therefore, polygamy from an individual standpoint, does not meet the same criteria for marriage as do homosexuals or heterosexuals. Lack of orientation.
    Neither is monogamy a sexual orientation. Sexual orientation holds no bearing upon the number of individuals that you have an attraction to such that you wish to spend the rest of your life with. Additionally, your logic fails to account for bi-sexuality. By the way that orientation was presented above, then it would logically follow that a bi-sexual would want to marry one of each gender. Since we know that there are many, if not most, bisexuals who are monogamous, this also reenforces the concept that orientation bears no impact upon the number of other individuals that one might wish to marry.

    I am going to have to assume that you note about what benefits the state only insofar as the legal marriage. If the state did not recognize marriage legally, marriage would still exist, as it did prior to the state codifying marriage into law.


    Now, we move into the societal realm. Government supports marriage for a few reasons. The productive rearing of children is most important. Creating a stable family life is also key: it adds to the positive potential for healthy children, but it also creates healthy adults. There is plenty of evidence to support the theory that those who live in a healthy, stable, committed relationship, are happier, healthier, and are more productive members of society. These are all things that benefit the state. Research shows that, regardless of sexual orientation, gay or straight, folks who live in these kinds of committed relationships, do better, and rear children better, than those who do not. This is regardless of sexual orientation. This is the second piece of the argument that will, eventually win the day for gay marriage. Polygamy does not offer the same benefits. And the answer to "why" is simple, and is psychological in nature. Jealousy, rivalry, and inconsistency. Just like my argument that psychology cannot be separated from economics, hence, because of greed, pure forms of both socialism and libertarianism are destined to be complete failures, neither can human psychology be separated from this issue. What is the number one cause of divorce? Adultery. Why? Jealousy and rivalry. In a multi-partner marriage, it would be impossible for their not to be some sort of hierarchy, and even if this is agreed upon, one cannot eliminate one's emotions. With this type of emotional instability at the familial structure's core, a healthy, committed relationship, similar to that of a single partner marriage, could not be obtained. Further, the inconsistency in caretaking responsibilities and in child rearing responsibilities, compounded by the hierarchies and rivalries will harm the children, affecting their functioning. We already see some of this in divorced families, where inconsistent rules, non-existent co-parenting, and rivalries, negatively affect children.

    I'm not sure how you derived jealousy and rivalry as the causes of divorce, especially in comparison to polygamy. To whom is the jealousy and rivalry directed to in a monogamous marriage that causes one or the other to not only seek an additional romantic relationship outside the marriage, but to keep it secret? Additionally, if these feeling do arise in a monogamous relationship how are they handled such that the marriage stays intact? What inconsistencies occur in care-taking responsibilities between three adults that wouldn't also happen between two? Or child rearing responsibilities? These issues are in monogamous relationship currently. Obviously not all, and in some they either get resolved or find a medium that still allows a stable life for the kids. And of course in some they never get resolved at all and that is detrimental to the children. What evidence exists that states that these variations would also exist in polygamous families?

    Lastly, though there is plenty of research that supports both heterosexual and homosexual unions as being beneficial, there is none that supports polygamy.
    Aside from the fact that there is, it is, granted, mush less than the research into homosexuality. And for many of the same reasons. Religious tenants prevented anyone from even suggesting that homosexuality was natural yet alone not an issue within marriage. Why is it surprising that polygamy is still suffering from the same blindness?


    All of this shows how there is not correlation nor slippery slope from homosexual to polygamous marriage. Polygamy, for the reasons I identified, is not only a very different animal than homosexual marriage, but has none of the similar benefits to the state that the government currently sees marriage as.
    Polygamy as a reaction to homosexual marriage is a smokescreen and an invalid comparison.
    I agree that polygamy is not a logical progression from SSM anymore than SSM was a logical progression from interracial marriage. However it cannot be ignored that all three have shared many common arguments that have not be valid for any of them.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooble View Post
    Tell me what you know, Lakryte. You're a Californian so tell me how the universe rolls. You people love to do that kind of stuff.
    What do I know? You call everyone who disagrees with you a liberal or a communist. I know that is stupid.
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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    What do I know? You call everyone who disagrees with you a liberal or a communist. I know that is stupid.
    No, I call anyone who parrots liberal or communist opinions a liberal or a communist. So you don't even know that.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    I am rather partial to the idea that there should be no legally recognized marriage. I know this presents specific issues (i.e. health care coverage for one's family, etc.), but I'm speaking in terms of a quasi-utopian polisciguy world, haha.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    Polygamy isn't liberty, it's a frivolity.
    The same can be said of homosexuality.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooble View Post
    No, I call anyone who parrots liberal or communist opinions a liberal or a communist. So you don't even know that.
    Gay marriage does not equal communism.
    "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."
    "When we live authentically we create an opportunity for others to walk out of their dark prisons of pretend into freedom."

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