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Thread: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

  1. #601
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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    See post #21
    Let’s see…



    First, please allow me to apologize for taking so long to get back to you. Sometimes life jumps right in and changes your plans.

    Now, let’s take a look at each of these one at a time:

    1. Genesis 2:24
    For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

    In support of this first verse given in your graphic I would also refer you to Genesis 1:27-28. Also, see Matthew 19:4-6 in which Jesus reiterates Genesis 2:24

    Matthew 19:4-6
    And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

    In these verses you have God’s design for marriage.

    2. Man + Wives + Concubines = Marriage
    The second part of your graphic then list a number of biblical characters that had wives and concubines and essentially states that this is the basis for marriage. But there is nothing to suggest that such behavior is “God approved”. Abraham was a liar, Noah a drunk, Moses an egomaniac, David a murderer, Solomon an idolater, etc. and just because these people behaved this way is in no way to suggest that God condoned this behavior.

    Just because the Bible recognizes that a certain behavior exists does not mean that it condones that behavior.

    3. Man + Woman + Woman’s Property (Slave) = Marriage (Genesis 16)
    Genesis 16 doesn’t say this. What it does say is that Sarah took her servant Hagar to her husband Abraham so that Abraham could have sex with her so that Hagar could do what Sarah had been unable to do (up till that time) which was to give Abraham a child.

    There is nothing to indicate that this is God’s idea for marriage.

    What is described here is a custom that existed in Abraham’s day in which a man could conceive an heir when his own wife in unable to provide him with one.

    4. Man + Woman + Woman + Woman…(Polygamy) = Marriage
    Once again your graphic list a bunch of biblical characters that were polygamists as evidence that polygamy is endorsed by the Bible. But, once again, just because the Bible recognized something doesn’t mean that the Bible condones especially in light of Genesis 2:24 & Matthew 19:4-6.

    The Bible also recognized that lying, murder, bestiality, rape and the devil all exist but it would be ludicrous to conclude from that then that God condones of such things.

    5. Man + Brother’s Widow (Levirate Marriage)

    Genesis 38:6-10
    Now Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, and her name wasTamar. But Er, Judah’s firstborn, was evil in the sight of theLord, so the Lord took his life. Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up [a]offspring for your brother.” Onan knew that the [b]offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord; so He took his life also.

    This stems from…

    Deuteronomy 25:5-6
    When brothers live together and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the deceased shall not be married outside the family to a strange man. Her husband’s brother shall go in to her and take her to himself as wife and perform the duty of a husband’s brother to her. It shall be that the firstborn whom she bears shall [a]assume the name of his dead brother, so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.

    Now, no one has explained what the complaint with this law is so I’m not sure how to respond? Do you think that it means if a man has a wife and his brother dies he must take another wife? There is nothing here to indicate that the (living) brother was married to begin with. Of course, there is nothing here to indicate that he wasn’t either so it’s a bit unclear?

    What I do know is that there is a lot of concern given to widows in the Bible. The reason for this is that in biblical days if a woman was widowed and had no sons then she had no one to care for her in her old age. To provide a widow with a son was to provide for her when she became too old to care for herself.

    Regardless, help me out here. What is the complaint?

    6. Rapist + Victim = Marriage

    Deuteronomy 22:28-29
    If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.

    This was a law placed into effect to provide for a woman if she had been raped. In Israel, if a woman was raped outside a settlement she was presumed innocent of consensual sex (as that would result in her being stoned to death--see verse 21) as she would have been too far away for her to cry for help (inside the settlement her cries for help would have been heard by someone deterring the rape).

    I suspect I find this as abhorrent as you do but this was a different time and culture. Fortunately, the Levitical laws no longer apply.

    But this law was--in part--a punishment of the rapist. I hardly think anyone would argue this was God’s design for marriage. Obviously, two people involved in a rape are never going to enjoy any type of real relationship.

    7. Male Soldiers + Prisoners of War = Marriage

    Numbers 31:1-18

    Well, yea. After the war with the Midians, the virgins girls were spared slaughter and could be taken as wives. It doesn’t say anything about forced marriages, rape, or anything else--only that the virgins could be spared.

    While hardly what you or I may think of as prime dating circumstances it certainly, once again, does not imply forced marriages, rape, etc.

    Deuteronomy 21:11-14
    and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall also remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, you shall not mistreat her, because you have humbled her.

    See above. Once again, there is nothing here to suggest the marriage is forced, we’re not talking about rape or slavery.

    Believe it or not such laws were put in place to protect women…not harm them.

    8. Male Slave + Female Slave = Marriage

    Exodus 21:4
    If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone.

    All this--and the surrounding verses say--is that if a man is a slave and is married, when he is freed his wife will be freed with him.

    If a man is a slave and he is given a wife during his time is slavery, when he is set free the “wife” remains with the master as does any children. The wife and children remain the responsibility of the master. All slaves remained in servitude for six years and were set free on the seventh year…including women. After her time in servitude, she too, would be set free (to re-join her husband, I suspect).

    In any event, how does this not fit with the one man + one woman = marriage scenario?

    Your graphic does a lot to confuse the issue about God’s design for marriage but falls apart under scrutiny. God’s design was defined in Genesis 2 and reaffirmed by Christ in Matthew 19 and calls for one man and one woman.

    Any variation is simply an example of man’s hard-heartedness against God.
    "Liberalism is a doctrine fostered by a delusional and illogical people and rabidly promoted by the mainstream media and ruling elite which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." - unknown

  2. #602
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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I see. You only support the Supreme Court decisions that go your way. Landmark decisions have been 5-4 many times. Better understand that when you roll those dice, it might decide this forever and it may not be the decision you want. That's life.
    And the SCOTUS has made many decisions of this nature that have later been overturned, one less than 2 decades since the first decision was made.

    I stick by the Constitution. If it makes you feel any better, I don't agree with several of the SCOTUS decisions that have come out in the past decade or so. I abide by them just like all other citizens do, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them or feel that they should not be challenged or legislative action taken to make those decisions moot.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #603
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    What about the polygamists!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And the SCOTUS has made many decisions of this nature that have later been overturned, one less than 2 decades since the first decision was made.

    I stick by the Constitution. If it makes you feel any better, I don't agree with several of the SCOTUS decisions that have come out in the past decade or so. I abide by them just like all other citizens do, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them or feel that they should not be challenged or legislative action taken to make those decisions moot.
    Challenge away. That's what they are there for; to make the tough decisions. Decisions like this one. Decisions that you and I will probably never agree on. Well, maybe when you get older and wiser we might but just sayin'.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Challenge away. That's what they are there for; to make the tough decisions. Decisions like this one. Decisions that you and I will probably never agree on. Well, maybe when you get older and wiser we might but just sayin'.
    And once they finally do decide to overturn the anti-ssm laws/bans, they won't be revisiting the issue because the other side has no standing to challenge. As long as same sex couples are being denied access to marriage, they will have standing.

    No we won't agree unless you change your position. Age does not grant wisdom. Wisdom comes from experience and openminded understanding. I have felt like this for over 18 years (and prior to that, I was a child that had no clue really what legal marriage was about nor really what intimate relationships entailed). People don't change their positions on issues such as this and go to not accepting something such as homosexuality or believing that people should not have rights that they used to believe they should have. It is a very rare change in opinion and generally would only occur with some serious harm done from the group they support or from some form of brainwashing.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And once they finally do decide to overturn the anti-ssm laws/bans, they won't be revisiting the issue because the other side has no standing to challenge. As long as same sex couples are being denied access to marriage, they will have standing.

    No we won't agree unless you change your position. Age does not grant wisdom. Wisdom comes from experience and openminded understanding. I have felt like this for over 18 years (and prior to that, I was a child that had no clue really what legal marriage was about nor really what intimate relationships entailed). People don't change their positions on issues such as this and go to not accepting something such as homosexuality or believing that people should not have rights that they used to believe they should have. It is a very rare change in opinion and generally would only occur with some serious harm done from the group they support or from some form of brainwashing.
    I don't think that gays can actually substantiate themselves as a married couple in a heterosexual world...

    Sure..everyone has to accept it...because it is the law...

    Won't stop people sniggering behind their hands though....

  6. #606
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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfie View Post
    I don't think that gays can actually substantiate themselves as a married couple in a heterosexual world...

    Sure..everyone has to accept it...because it is the law...

    Won't stop people sniggering behind their hands though....
    There are people that don't approve of interracial couples or people who get divorced. There are still those who not only "snigger" behind their backs, but are outright hostile toward interracial couples. This was even more true in the decade after interracial marriage became legal. Now, it is isolated and is likely to be viewed by others as wrong and stopped if done in public. The same type of pattern is likely to be seen in acceptance of same sex couples. There will be some at first who will be openly hurtful and angry and even possibly violent toward same sex couples. But with time, that will change to mainly looks of disdain and comments made in private, because when done in public, a person would be likely to get called out for it.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #607
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    What about the polygamists!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    There are people that don't approve of interracial couples or people who get divorced. There are still those who not only "snigger" behind their backs, but are outright hostile toward interracial couples. This was even more true in the decade after interracial marriage became legal. Now, it is isolated and is likely to be viewed by others as wrong and stopped if done in public. The same type of pattern is likely to be seen in acceptance of same sex couples. There will be some at first who will be openly hurtful and angry and even possibly violent toward same sex couples. But with time, that will change to mainly looks of disdain and comments made in private, because when done in public, a person would be likely to get called out for it.
    There should be no hostility and there's no excuse at all for violence over this no matter how it goes or how theses eventually end up written. This is something g we have to decide together and the. We have to accept the outcome together, all through proper and civil means. I think homosexuals are to marriage what water is to "dry". But we will all decide together and it won't be my opinion that is the last word, nor your opinion that is the last word, but OUR opinion tested and tried and debated and decided. And that's how things work in this country and that's one of the things that makes it a great country.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  8. #608
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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    There are people that don't approve of interracial couples or people who get divorced. There are still those who not only "snigger" behind their backs, but are outright hostile toward interracial couples. This was even more true in the decade after interracial marriage became legal. Now, it is isolated and is likely to be viewed by others as wrong and stopped if done in public. The same type of pattern is likely to be seen in acceptance of same sex couples. There will be some at first who will be openly hurtful and angry and even possibly violent toward same sex couples. But with time, that will change to mainly looks of disdain and comments made in private, because when done in public, a person would be likely to get called out for it.
    This hypothesis may be OK in America...where black people are ''free''..it is not ok in the UK..where we have a number of African immigrants who would klll gays without a second glance..

    And kill gay people in their relative homelands..

    Uganda Anti-Homosexuality Bill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  9. #609
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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    There should be no hostility and there's no excuse at all for violence over this no matter how it goes or how theses eventually end up written. This is something g we have to decide together and the. We have to accept the outcome together, all through proper and civil means. I think homosexuals are to marriage what water is to "dry". But we will all decide together and it won't be my opinion that is the last word, nor your opinion that is the last word, but OUR opinion tested and tried and debated and decided. And that's how things work in this country and that's one of the things that makes it a great country.
    There will be hostility. Hopefully it will be isolated and very limited, but unfortunately, people are people and there are those who cannot behave civilly, especially when their opinion of how something should be is not upheld. There is no excuse for it, but that doesn't change the reality that there will almost certainly be hostility when same sex couples are allowed to marry throughout the US.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  10. #610
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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfie View Post
    This hypothesis may be OK in America...where black people are ''free''..it is not ok in the UK..where we have a number of African immigrants who would klll gays without a second glance..

    And kill gay people in their relative homelands..

    Uganda Anti-Homosexuality Bill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    And that sounds like a problem with British laws if they are not holding immigrants to the same standards as they hold native Brits.

    But we are discussing US laws here, not British or Ugandan laws. The laws in Uganda and other African nations are atrocious, but any time someone comes to another country, they should obey the laws of that country, particularly if they are living in that country. And countries should hold people to the laws of their country. I don't approve of the laws of Uganda or any country that oppresses any of its people, but I think that is why we should impose sanctions on countries that have such laws.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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