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Thread: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

  1. #461
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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    then that would be your problem, the integrity of marriage is factually not in jeopardy on bit
    if you are worried about it thats your issue to deal with but its meaningless to reality.

    Granting equal rights does nothign to the itegrity of marriage.
    if you disagree by all means give me examples that factually put it at risk.
    I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. The decline in the integrity of marriage has nothing to do with any kind of rights to marriage being recognized. Nor is the decay due to any thing per se' that Bob Blaylock asserts, although I do agree with some of the symptoms that he points out. We could have had SSM and interracial marriage along with no legal consequences for sex outside of marriage over 100 years ago and it's doubtful that we'd have these marriage issues before today. As I see it most of these problems stem from the instant gratification syndrome that today's younger people have, and for that matter many of the older ones seem to be developing it too. When people jump into marriage with just a few short month of knowing each other , yet alone dating, marriages are bound to fail.

    I also think that you may be defining "the integrity of marriage" as something different from the rest of us. Are you denying that divorce rate is very high, or that children are being born out of wedlock in larger numbers?

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. The decline in the integrity of marriage has nothing to do with any kind of rights to marriage being recognized. Nor is the decay due to any thing per se' that Bob Blaylock asserts, although I do agree with some of the symptoms that he points out. We could have had SSM and interracial marriage along with no legal consequences for sex outside of marriage over 100 years ago and it's doubtful that we'd have these marriage issues before today. As I see it most of these problems stem from the instant gratification syndrome that today's younger people have, and for that matter many of the older ones seem to be developing it too. When people jump into marriage with just a few short month of knowing each other , yet alone dating, marriages are bound to fail.

    I also think that you may be defining "the integrity of marriage" as something different from the rest of us. Are you denying that divorce rate is very high, or that children are being born out of wedlock in larger numbers?
    I understand you fine, the point is none of it FACTUALLY means anything and im guessing by you not listing things that factually impact you agree or realize you cant.

    and your statement further proves my point, you say you think my definition is different from yours, well you just hit the nail on the head. There is NO definition, its made up, its subjective and it is personal to each person. SO like you already admitted others marriages dont effect yours, so the integrity is factually in ZERO danger.

    Yes divorce rate is high, so what, what does that factually do to the integrity of marriage? nothing
    Yes children are born out of wedlock what does that factually do to the integrity of marriage? nothing

    what if divorce was super low and people stayed together in BAD or ABUSIVE or FAILED marriages but kept it together legally?
    what if most kids werent born out of wedlock but find themselves in the marriages described above?

    again both meaningless to the integrity of marriage and both subjective.

    The integrity is in ZERO jeopardy.

    AGain though if you have things you think factually put it in danger please list them.
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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    I understand you fine, the point is none of it FACTUALLY means anything and im guessing by you not listing things that factually impact you agree or realize you cant.

    and your statement further proves my point, you say you think my definition is different from yours, well you just hit the nail on the head. There is NO definition, its made up, its subjective and it is personal to each person. SO like you already admitted others marriages dont effect yours, so the integrity is factually in ZERO danger.
    Given this then you can't say that it's factually not in jeopardy. In addition you seem to keep focusing on the individual marriage vice the institution as a whole. We can say that the educational system is failing while still pointing out individual schools that are highly successful.

    Yes divorce rate is high, so what, what does that factually do to the integrity of marriage? nothing
    Yes children are born out of wedlock what does that factually do to the integrity of marriage? nothing

    what if divorce was super low and people stayed together in BAD or ABUSIVE or FAILED marriages but kept it together legally?
    what if most kids werent born out of wedlock but find themselves in the marriages described above?
    With the exception of the last statement I'd include all of those as detrimental to the integrity of any given marriage. And when the trend of such events becomes large enough the institution as a whole is in trouble.

    again both meaningless to the integrity of marriage and both subjective.

    The integrity is in ZERO jeopardy.

    AGain though if you have things you think factually put it in danger please list them.
    Aside from the fact that anything that people put out you are dismissing, we have given you those facts, such as divorce rates. But given your subjective opinion that divorce rates are irrelevant, the conclusion must be that there is no integrity to be or not be in jeopardy.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    How does it affect your marriage in any way?
    I don't see how there could be any direct negative effects on my wife and me. If anything, it would make our marriage stronger, only because we are both committed to fighting sin.

    But on a broader scale, I did find this site on a quick search. If you have the time, perhaps some of you more hard core gay activists could role up your sleeves and try to dismantle it.

    http://www.frc.org/issuebrief/the-to...e-sex-marriage

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    1.)Given this then you can't say that it's factually not in jeopardy.
    2.) In addition you seem to keep focusing on the individual marriage vice the institution as a whole. We can say that the educational system is failing while still pointing out individual schools that are highly successful.
    3.) With the exception of the last statement I'd include all of those as detrimental to the integrity of any given marriage. And when the trend of such events becomes large enough the institution as a whole is in trouble.
    4.) Aside from the fact that anything that people put out you are dismissing, we have given you those facts, such as divorce rates.
    5.) But given your subjective opinion that divorce rates are irrelevant,
    6.) the conclusion must be that there is no integrity to be or not be in jeopardy.
    1.) yes i can because those are the facts
    2.) what is the "institution" of marriage? factually describe it for me. AGain thats totally made up and subjective.
    your example has no barring.
    3.) you are free to have that OPINION but thats all it is and thats my point
    4.) no you havent given any FACTS that marriage integrity is in trouble.
    divorce rate is 50+% that is a fact, its not a fact that its an impact to the integrity of marriage. HUGE difference.
    5.) Yes it is a opinion VERY good because there is no facts on this matter, no you are learning
    6.) in general the integrity is in the legal contract and personally its in what people choose, thats it
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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dooble View Post
    I don't see how there could be any direct negative effects on my wife and me. If anything, it would make our marriage stronger, only because we are both committed to fighting sin.

    But on a broader scale, I did find this site on a quick search. If you have the time, perhaps some of you more hard core gay activists could role up your sleeves and try to dismantle it.

    Family Research Council
    I'm certainly not a "hardcore" activist. I just don't think it's a big deal.

    I don't like the article you linked me to. There are no references to any of the data provided. I live in MA and I never heard of some of the things claimed in the article. There are PLENTY of things that are MUCH more concerning, expensive and wasteful, especially concerning the government and taxes.

    We are supposed to be the land of the free. When we say that certain people cannot be married because certain religious groups don't like it, don't agree with it, are disgusted by it, or whatever, that doesn't sound very much like freedom to me.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I'm certainly not a "hardcore" activist. I just don't think it's a big deal.

    I don't like the article you linked me to. There are no references to any of the data provided. I live in MA and I never heard of some of the things claimed in the article. There are PLENTY of things that are MUCH more concerning, expensive and wasteful, especially concerning the government and taxes.

    We are supposed to be the land of the free. When we say that certain people cannot be married because certain religious groups don't like it, don't agree with it, are disgusted by it, or whatever, that doesn't sound very much like freedom to me.
    I think you're putting too much blame on religious groups. I think you should equally blame people like me that aren't coming from a religious angle at all. Homosexual marriage simply makes no sense, which is why it's never been part of our social landscape in this country and, for that matter, hasn't been part of the social landscape of any country in modern history. It's not just because "religious groups" think it's icky or sinful. It's because marriage is a biological pairing. We're trying to change that and make marriage something else and maybe those in favor of that will succeed, but forming a couple sanctioned by the state to form a biological family unit was the purpose of marriage (despite countless SSM asvocates shrieking that it's really all about other things, instead). When people are ready to accept that marriage is no longer what it's always been and that this, something that most of us considered the most unchanging thing in our society, has changed, then the legislation will follow. I guess it will follow for polygamy in the same path because I think that will be inevitable, too. We're moving into an age where we feel that there shouldn't be any restrictions on such things as adult relationships, so eventually, anything will go. How it will work out, who knows? We should probably try to get a handle on that first, though, because these things, once changed, are rarely able to be rescinded peacefully.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I think you're putting too much blame on religious groups. I think you should equally blame people like me that aren't coming from a religious angle at all. Homosexual marriage simply makes no sense, which is why it's never been part of our social landscape in this country and, for that matter, hasn't been part of the social landscape of any country in modern history. It's not just because "religious groups" think it's icky or sinful. It's because marriage is a biological pairing. We're trying to change that and make marriage something else and maybe those in favor of that will succeed, but forming a couple sanctioned by the state to form a biological family unit was the purpose of marriage (despite countless SSM asvocates shrieking that it's really all about other things, instead). When people are ready to accept that marriage is no longer what it's always been and that this, something that most of us considered the most unchanging thing in our society, has changed, then the legislation will follow. I guess it will follow for polygamy in the same path because I think that will be inevitable, too. We're moving into an age where we feel that there shouldn't be any restrictions on such things as adult relationships, so eventually, anything will go. How it will work out, who knows? We should probably try to get a handle on that first, though, because these things, once changed, are rarely able to be rescinded peacefully.
    I don't think it's "anything goes." It is the joining of people who love each other or want a union for another reason. It's really nobody's business as to the WHY or the WHO someone else is marrying.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I don't think it's "anything goes." It is the joining of people who love each other or want a union for another reason. It's really nobody's business as to the WHY or the WHO someone else is marrying.
    I said that's where we are heading. It's not anything goes right now, but that's what we're all actually fighting over. Some want to push it that way and some don't. The same rationale you give for gay marriage, applies to polygamists or any other relationship model anyone wants to come up with..... Now should people be able to enter into any permutation of a relationship they wish? Sure. Must the state be forced to sanction it? No.

    What was strange with your remark, however, was that you think it's not about "anything goes" and yet your reasoning for marriage equates to "anything goes"..... People who love each other or want a union for other reasons. <---- that's "anything goes".

    Now, if I'm misreading you and you actually do support anything goes to the point of polygamy and beyond, then I won't quibble about inconsistencies in your position. In fact, you're just one of the people that are willing to be honest about the fact that you don't really care whether polygamy becomes legal in this country. Most are keeping that opinion to themselves for fear it might hinder the advance of homosexual marriage that paves the way to further plasticity of marriage.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I said that's where we are heading. It's not anything goes right now, but that's what we're all actually fighting over. Some want to push it that way and some don't. The same rationale you give for gay marriage, applies to polygamists or any other relationship model anyone wants to come up with..... Now should people be able to enter into any permutation of a relationship they wish? Sure. Must the state be forced to sanction it? No.
    I don't care whether or not the state provides benefits to any married couple or multiple married people. My issue is with those people who want to prevent people from marrying who they want on the basis of their religious beliefs or myths or paranoia.

    What was strange with your remark, however, was that you think it's not about "anything goes" and yet your reasoning for marriage equates to "anything goes"..... People who love each other or want a union for other reasons. <---- that's "anything goes".
    I believe any adults of consenting age should be able to be married if they so wish. So no, it isn't "anything" goes.

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