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Thread: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    They can't enter into a contract nor can they provide consent, so why would a marriage license be needed?
    Because a lot of predatory adults would do it anyway. If they have to apply for a license and things like that, it makes it more difficult for them to marry a minor. You have to provide identification to get a marriage license, so that makes it a hurdle. I imagine it's easier to lie on a regular old contract.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    That is absolutely untrue, or at least in my neck of the woods. A few years back, there was an incident in Rhode Island (a neighboring state to me), where a tribal smoke shop was raided and shut down by the RI State Police Department. They arrested several people, and now the tribe is no longer allowed to sell cigarettes without collecting taxes for the state. I am QUITE sure that if child molestation was occurring, the police would also perform a raid where you live. They do not live by their own laws. They are allowed to prosecute and similar things according to their own tribal customs, but they are NOT allowed to break federal and/or state laws.
    In a sense you both are wrong in that you are looking at Native/Indigenous American tribes as all identical in not only practices, but even the existence of laws, the involvement or lack of by US federal authorities etc. State and county police and courts have very limited jurisdiction over actual tribal lands and tribal councils have even less authority. Depending upon where, how isolated or not, determines the level of interest of Federal authorities. Generally is it very low and it well understood that raping a Native American woman on tribal lands, particularly in the Western and Central states essentially never will be prosecuted.

    In the most remote rural regions, there essentially is no law and order of any kind - nor is any really possible in realistic terms. It doesn't matter the crime. No cops. No courts. No government presence. No tribal authority either. It also depends how civilized the particular tribal location is and how much it has or hasn't integrated in part with the rest of the area American culture.

    All Caucasian people need to remember is that unless it is some very public touristy area on a major state highway well traveled and where many other white people will be - and ideally not on reservation land - stay off of any reservation land and any and all backroads that might lead into or near reservation land in the Southwest and Western Central USA. You'd be much safer driving around alone in Mexico, Columbia or - in some areas - Somolia. The Hollywood portrayals and academic perceptions about such tribal lands and people are very inaccurate.


    Discussing Native Americans and tribal/reservation lands as generically similar is as accurate as to consider all countries of the world as basically similar.

    However, I don't really see Native American tribes' practices as being relevant to the topic either really.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Okay. What is the correct terminology for these groups then?
    To be honest, I don't really have a good answer. I don't know if there is a valid term that covers individual members of these other groups. But they are not Mormons.

    Mormons are members of the church that is formally called “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. The term “Mormon”*does not cover those who are not members of, or otherwise closely associate with this church. To use the term to describe these other groups, many of which are involved in illegal and immoral activities that Mormons oppose, is to imply that Mormons endorse and engage in these activities.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    I said "extremist" Mormons. Please stop misrepresenting what I stated.
    They are not Mormons, “extremist” or otherwise.

    Please stop slandering Mormons by using a term that only properly covers us, to refer to freaks who engage in activity that Mormons regard as immoral. Your abuse if this term is offensive and slanderous to Mormons.




    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Never heard of Warren Jeffs, leader of a polygamist Mormon church in Utah? Yes, the Latter Day Saints are a branch of the Mormon religion.
    No, it is not.

    Warren Jeffs is not a Mormon, and neither are his followers. There is only one Mormon church, and Warren Jeffs and his organization have nothing to do with it.
    Last edited by Bob Blaylock; 06-24-13 at 11:52 PM. Reason: May the Forks be with you, always.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    To be honest, I don't really have a good answer. I don't know if there is a valid term that covers individual members of these other groups. But they are not Mormons.

    Mormons are members of the church that is formally called “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. The term “Mormon”*does not cover those who are not members of, or otherwise closely associate with this church. To use the term to describe these other groups, many of which are involved in illegal and immoral activities that Mormons oppose, is to imply that Mormons endorse and engage in these activities.
    I respectfully disagree Bob. Your statement is refuted by the example of the large number of "Lutheran" sects, many of whom are breakaway for one or another difference of opinion about Biblical interpretations.

    The "sect" of Mormonism that still believes in polygamy adheres to just about all the other tenets of the Church of Latter Day Saints. In all other respects, they are still Mormon.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    They are not Mormons, “extremist” or otherwise.

    Please stop slandering Mormons by using a term that only properly covers us, to refer to freaks who engage in activity that Mormons regard as immoral. Your abuse if this term is offensive and slanderous to Mormons.
    Give it up Bob. Warren Jeffs church was a Latter Day Saints church. That IS a Mormon church, and yes he was an extremist Mormon. Like it or not, those are the facts, so quit whining about it.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    No, it is not.

    Warren Jeffs is not a Mormon, and neither are his followers. There is only one Mormon church, and Warren Jeffs and his organization have nothing to do with it.
    Yes he was. I posted a link that says that he was a Mormon and a member (or a leader) of the Latter Day Saints. Now, unless you have PROOF to the contrary besides your weak denials, then I don't have time for this. An important hockey game is on.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I respectfully disagree Bob. Your statement is refuted by the example of the large number of "Lutheran" sects, many of whom are breakaway for one or another difference of opinion about Biblical interpretations.

    The "sect" of Mormonism that still believes in polygamy adheres to just about all the other tenets of the Church of Latter Day Saints. In all other respects, they are still Mormon.
    Exactly. Just like EVERY religion, the Mormon religion has it's share of extremists too, and that isn't including the "mainstream Mormons." Obviously some people don't understand what the term "extremist" means.

    And what makes some people think "their" religion is immune to extremist interpretation is beyond me.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I respectfully disagree Bob. Your statement is refuted by the example of the large number of "Lutheran" sects, many of whom are breakaway for one or another difference of opinion about Biblical interpretations.
    Lutherans aren't Mormons, and they don't get to tell us who we must or must not include under our name. It's worth noting that even though Lutheranism broke fairly directly off of the Catholic church, Lutherans are not Catholics.


    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    The "sect" of Mormonism that still believes in polygamy adheres to just about all the other tenets of the Church of Latter Day Saints. In all other respects, they are still Mormon.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Give it up Bob. Warren Jeffs church was a Latter Day Saints church. That IS a Mormon church, and yes he was an extremist Mormon. Like it or not, those are the facts, so quit whining about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Yes he was. I posted a link that says that he was a Mormon and a member (or a leader) of the Latter Day Saints. Now, unless you have PROOF to the contrary besides your weak denials, then I don't have time for this. An important hockey game is on.
    I've posted, at least two or three times before in this thread, a link to a statement on an official web site of the Mormon church that clarifies this. Some specific quotes from this statement:

    • Warren Jeffs Is Not a Mormon. Warren Jeffs is not a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and never has been.
    • Mormons Do Not Practice Polygamy
    • There Is No Such Thing as a "Mormon Fundamentalist" or "Mormon Sect"

    Here is page 48 of the Associated Press' Style Guide, as rendered by Google Books:

    What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]-apsg_mormon-jpg

    The Associated Press' own policies dictate that the term “Mormon” is only to be used to describe the genuine Mormon Church, and not any of the splinter groups that have broken off from it.

    The Church's own style guide quotes the AP style guide on this matter:

    • When referring to people or organizations that practice polygamy, the terms "Mormons," "Mormon fundamentalist," "Mormon dissidents," etc. are incorrect. The Associated Press Stylebook notes: "The term Mormon is not properly applied to the other … churches that resulted from the split after [Joseph] Smith's death."

    In those countries where religious names of this sort are trademarkable, the Church has trademarked the name “Mormon”, which makes it illegal in those countries to use this term to refer to other churches.

    A Mormon is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The term properly refers only to us, and not to any other organization nor to the members thereof.

    When you use the term “Mormon” to refer to groups such as the FLDS, you are accusing those of us who are properly identified by this name of the conduct in which members of the FLDS are known to engage. This is dishonest, slanderous, and offensive.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

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    re: What about the polygamists!?! [W:693]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    Lutherans aren't Mormons, and they don't get to tell us who we must or must not include under our name. It's worth noting that even though Lutheranism broke fairly directly off of the Catholic church, Lutherans are not Catholics...

    ...When you use the term “Mormon” to refer to groups such as the FLDS, you are accusing those of us who are properly identified by this name of the conduct in which members of the FLDS are known to engage. This is dishonest, slanderous, and offensive.
    I didn't think it necessary to quote the entirety of your prior response since it was very long. I did read it all though.

    While I appreciate your position as a member of the predominant Mormon faith, it is nonetheless merely the typical "political statement" made by any "parent faith" in reference to every "breakaway sect," including your example of the "Catholic church."

    Basically you, and your fellow "predominants" deny the sect is Mormon. They, the "sect," say they are the "true Mormons" and that the "predominants" have fallen from the way. The rest of us don't care because as far as we are concerned it's like Oranges calling Naval Oranges apples.

    No disrespect intended, and I apologize if I seem insensitive to the schism which was never my intent.

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