Do You Agree with John Stossel?

From Shrubnoses post: "STOSSEL: Totally. I'm in total agreement with Rand Paul. You can call it public accommodation, and it is, but it's a private business. And if a private business wants to say, "We don't want any blond anchorwomen or mustached guys," it ought to be their right. Are we going to say to the black students' association they have to take white people, or the gay softball association they have to take straight people? We should have freedom of association in America."

Again: Here is the example: I was in Mississippi in ’68 where the signs were still posted. An example was at the Greyhound station with men’s and women’s rest rooms inside black out house out the back. So, was Greyhound doing what it wanted to do for its Black customers because of corporate standards? No. Also, the Black Airmen were regularly attacked off base with no Mississippi law enforcement follow up. Even the Law Enforcement business had freedom to do business with only those they wanted to.
It was local government and ‘culture’ that over ruled what the private business wanted to do.

Is that what we want to get back too?

As Stossel mentioned, much of the segregation was state-enforced. Yes, some businesses would discriminate immorally against certain group/individuals, but that is what boycotts are for.

On the other hand, I think Paul and Stossel should pick their fights better. People who do not understand fully libertarianism draw all sorts of wild conclusions over this issue.

Lakryte said:

I do agree with Stossel, although I can see both sides. I am gay. I can imagine certain businesses saying we don't cater to gay people. But should I be able to force them to cater to me? I don't think I should be. Why would I want to give my money to people like that anyway? I would instead create an association of gay-friendly businesses and publicize it. Or create a list of all the companies that discriminate, and give them hell. Bring to light to discrimination that I think is wrong.

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Yes, bring them out in the open. As good of an argument as any.

Lord of Planar said:

No. I'm tired of people supporting special rights. That's what it boils down to.

I actually believe that the people supporting all these "special right" are the racists. By definition, a racist is someone who believes one race is inferior to another. Therefore, I conclude that everyone who believe that minorities need such a helping hand, believes they are inferior.

This isn't the age of the past, where blacks have little to no opportunity. There are only a very limited few who would deny minorities an equal chance. I say it's time to stop racism, primarily by ignoring the few turds we still have in society. make them meaningless. Legislating racial law, is supporting racism, by definition.

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Equality should never be seen as special. It is not racist to say that all people should be able to go to dinner or shop or see a movie without being denied due to race. It takes a special kind of skewed logic to call those who want equality as racist.

a351 said:

Absolutely not. Whether or not the businesses in question would have lost competitiveness or eventually went bankrupt is entirely speculatory and irrelevant. Putting into law the principle that no man should be treated as a second class citizen simply because of appearance was a necessary and long overdue measure.

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People discriminate every day. And yet it is not illegal. Libertarians just treat the issue for private businesses the same way we ALL treat the issue for individuals. Now, I will say that this should not even be an issue for discussion. There are a lot of pressing issues, and not allowing businesses to discriminate is not one of them.

M_A said:

what if a big business like say Chick Fil-A said that they won't serve black people or gays tomorrow and forever... Well, they would then force their employees to kick out any black or gay people that came in for food even though that employee might hate what they are doing.

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I understand your argument if that was taking place in the 1950s. But in the 21st century that would be the worst business decision ever. Chick Fil-A would go belly-up within a month.

a351 said:

I'm well aware that discrimination as a general concept exists in spades, but that in no way justifies excusing and tolerating it in all circumstances.

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No one said you have to tolerate it.

Lakryte said:

I do agree with Stossel, although I can see both sides. I am gay. I can imagine certain businesses saying we don't cater to gay people. But should I be able to force them to cater to me? I don't think I should be. Why would I want to give my money to people like that anyway? I would instead create an association of gay-friendly businesses and publicize it. Or create a list of all the companies that discriminate, and give them hell. Bring to light to discrimination that I think is wrong.

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Are you planning on having sex in their establishments?

Do you have a badge that announces that you prefer to have sex with other members of the same gender?

How the heck would anyone know that you are gay unless you tell them?

The nice part about free markets is that you could, in fact, create an organization that seeks discounts from businesses in return for your customer drawing power. You could use it to your advantage.

Lord of Planar said:

Why are liberals so authoritarian, forcing people to do things they don't want to?

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Its' not about liberals it's about civilization. In a civilized world people cannot always behave the way they want too. That's what civilization means.

Support public accomodations! Let the bigoted business owners stay in the dark about their beliefs and use your hard-earned money to get rich!

a351 said:

Absolutely not. Whether or not the businesses in question would have lost competitiveness or eventually went bankrupt is entirely speculatory and irrelevant. Putting into law the principle that no man should be treated as a second class citizen simply because of appearance was a necessary and long overdue measure.

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Well, how do you deal with the fact that I am treated as a second class citizen by my government every single day? I am white. I am male. I am married. I pay lots of taxes. My government despises me and treats me as a cash cow.

Yeah, I guess I am an enabler of free speech as well.
And freedom of religion.
And virtually every other freedom we have. I'm such an enabler.

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You did not address my analogy ... would you also enable the pedophile to have the freedom to practice pedophilia?

Both are equally bad.

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If you truly believed that you could not come down on either side of the CRA.
You have taken a position that indicates that you do not believe that they are equally bad.

How I feel about someone does not give me the right to take away their freedom of association with the force of law behind me.

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Then how can you possibly take the position that would enable Jim Crow laws to return?

At this point, he does harm to another.

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...and at the point where the racist practices racial discrimination he has taken away the rights of blacks to chose where they would like to do business. That is harm to those individuals ...like it or not.

Maybe a small few would, but really... With so many other places, why does it matter, besides not accepting other people's views?

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We are not talking about "not accepting people's views" we are talking about not accepting the color of their skin. If you can't see the difference you have to be purposely obtuse.

Lead by example then, rather than force of race baiting.

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'Tis you who are taking the position of the racist, and baiting the discussion.

I find most are liberal authoritarians who love to keep blacks underprivileged, so they have a political cause for power.

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You make it sound like denying blacks equal rights has no political power. What of racist authoritarians who loved racial discrimination laws because it gave them political and social power over an entire race? That's OK with you ,eh? Ever heard of George Wallace ?

We have little tolerance for those who punish the many over the sins of a few.

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Have you flown on an airplane in the last twelve years?

... you are part of the problem, by requiring the force of law to support your views.

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No, we require the force of law to to support the freedom of millions of Americans who would be denied the freedom to do business anywhere as is guaranteed under the constitution.

I wouldn't like it in some aspect, but I know upfront that the employer is an idiot ...

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...and you would be fine with the fact that say, a liberal democrat was paid more for the same job you do just because of your political affiliation? Bull! You would be pissed off that your rights were impinged on.

I thought this discussion was about just part of the act. Not the whole of it...

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It is the heart and legs of the Act.

But in the 21st century that would be the worst business decision ever. Chick Fil-A would go belly-up within a month.

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Not if every bigot and racist were to double their patronage as they have demonstrated their willingness to do.

Geoist said:

I understand your argument if that was taking place in the 1950s. But in the 21st century that would be the worst business decision ever. Chick Fil-A would go belly-up within a month.

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Maybe so but that would not stop others from capitalizing on hatred and creating Hate clubs that discriminate openly, making a mockery of the bill of rights.

Misterveritis said:

Well, how do you deal with the fact that I am treated as a second class citizen by my government every single day? I am white. I am male. I am married. I pay lots of taxes. My government despises me and treats me as a cash cow.

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You mean you despise the govt. That's a very different thing.

radcen said:

For those who agree with Paul and Stossel, if YOU could get away with it legally, which groups would YOU discriminate against, and why?

Be honest.

(My spidey-sense tells me no one will have the backbone to answer this.)

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Besides the fact that I judge people individually and not as groups, I wouldn't discriminate against ANY group because I want my business to be successful and prosper.

Lord of Planar said:

Like any disease, it needs to run it's course. as long as you violate peoples freedoms in the name of equality, you will never have equality. you cannot make that resentment disappear. Let people be racist, and those remaining decades later will have no new friends. Peer pressure will eliminate more than can be eliminated by law.

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Peer pressure did not work for 100's of years and now you think it will? Letting people be racist is how we got segregation.

radcen said:

For those who agree with Paul and Stossel, if YOU could get away with it legally, which groups would YOU discriminate against, and why?

Be honest.

(My spidey-sense tells me no one will have the backbone to answer this.)

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I would not allow any Federal-level democratic politician buy anything from me. That is about it.

iguanaman said:

Maybe so but that would not stop others from capitalizing on hatred and creating Hate clubs that discriminate openly, making a mockery of the bill of rights.

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Well, first of all, the Bill of Rights was a restriction on the State.

Secondly, there are already hate clubs in existence and they are perfectly legal. If you are talking about business, they will follow the fate of Chick-Fil-A.

Lord of Planar said:

There are plenty of places today that will accept people of all color. Why do you want people to use the force of law to go in where they aren't wanted? Today, racist places will not be common, or prosper.

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Why do want to support racists having a place to go? Is that what you think they deserve? Anyway a "private" business is far from private if it is open to the public.

iguanaman said:

You mean you despise the govt. That's a very different thing.

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No. I meant exactly what I said.

I will copy and paste it slowly for you: "Well, how do you deal with the fact that I am treated as a second class citizen by my government every single day? I am white. I am male. I am married. I pay lots of taxes. My government despises me and treats me as a cash cow."

Why isn't there a category for small, disadvantaged business owned by a married, white male? We have them for women, for blacks, for disabled, for just about every category except for married, white male owned...

iguanaman said:

Peer pressure did not work for 100's of years and now you think it will? Letting people be racist is how we got segregation.

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I think we get segregation because people of all backgrounds tend to associate with by people who are like them.

Misterveritis said:

No. I meant exactly what I said.

I will copy and past it slowly for you: "Well, how do you deal with the fact that I am treated as a second class citizen by my government every single day? I am white. I am male. I am married. I pay lots of taxes. My government despises me and treats me as a cash cow."

Why isn't there a category for small, disadvantaged business owned by a married, white male? We have them for women, for blacks, for disabled, for just about every category except for married, white male owned...

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What about the SBA? Not white enough for you?

Boo Radley said:

Equality should never be seen as special. It is not racist to say that all people should be able to go to dinner or shop or see a movie without being denied due to race. It takes a special kind of skewed logic to call those who want equality as racist.

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I was speaking in general, of such proposed laws, that discrimination is actionable "if" someone perceives it so.

That is my point. Equality should not be special! You cannot create "equality" by giving minorities tools to use against the majority! Tools get abused!

Geoist said:

Well, first of all, the Bill of Rights was a restriction on the State.

Secondly, there are already hate clubs in existence and they are perfectly legal. If you are talking about business, they will follow the fate of Chick-Fil-A.

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Hasn't Chick-fil-A grown? Do businesses and citizens no longer have the right to counter bullying from liberal special interest groups? In Huntsville at the only location I am aware of it was impossible to go there for lunch because the lines were so long.

iguanaman said:

Its' not about liberals it's about civilization. In a civilized world people cannot always behave the way they want too. That's what civilization means.

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Agreed. then someone's rights infringe on another person's rights. Something is clearly wrong. So why are we denying people freedom of association?