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Thread: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

  1. #1831
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    is a business a person, which give it rights...yes or no?
    A person has more rights than a business.
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    A person in the sense of the constitution? No.

    A business as you're using the term is a construct of a capitalist society as any sensible person should understand. A business does not now nor ever has equated to a person, if nothing else because it's not a biological entity - but there are a whole slew of other differences, some derivatives of biology, that even you should be able to grasp.
    a business is not flesh and blood this is true, but it has property, wealth, which is at risk by those who would seek to defraud or steal from it.

    if a person or entity, such as a business, had no rights ...I could steal from it lawfully.......because again what is government there to secure ....if no rights exist for it.

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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    A person has more rights than a business.
    then you admit a business has rights then

  4. #1834
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    a business is not flesh and blood this is true, but it has property, wealth, which is at risk by those who would seek to defraud or steal from it.

    if a person or entity, such as a business, had no rights ...I could steal from it lawfully.......because again what is government there to secure ....if no rights exist for it.
    Just for reference, if corporations are people, should they be treated as such in a court of law?

    For example, if corporation X was proven guilty of running a sweatshop where the human and civil rights are violated - what should the punishment be for the people in charge of that corporation?

    - Revocation of a business license.
    - Fine.
    - Jail time.
    - Execution; if their actions proved deadly?

    Another example: If corporation Y is proven guilty of having manufactured dangerous products causing the death of a certain number of people, what should the punishment?


    - Revocation of a business license.
    - Fine.
    - Jail time.

    ---------

    The hard reality is that corporations are trying to have it both ways and so are you. The ability to own property doesn't make you a person or entitle you to rights. A corporation isn't some sort of brain working in conjunction with board members. It's a fictional entity through and through that is allowed to own property by the state which gives it the license to even exist.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 08-01-13 at 02:25 AM.
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    then you admit a business has rights then
    I forgot with whom I was speaking. In your terms a business has no "natural rights" but we have granted it certain protections under the law.



    Of course, your "natural rights" (at least most of them) aren't natural at all - but that's a different subject.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Just for reference, if corporations are people, should they be treated as such in a court of law?

    For example, if corporation X was proven guilty of running a sweatshop where the human and civil rights are violated - what should the punishment be for the people in charge of that corporation?

    - Revocation of a business license.
    - Fine.
    - Jail time.
    - Execution; if their actions proved deadly?

    Another example: If corporation Y is proven guilty of having manufactured dangerous products causing the death of a certain number of people, what should the punishment?


    - Revocation of a business license.
    - Fine.
    - Jail time.

    ---------

    The hard reality is that corporations are trying to have it both ways and so are you. The ability to own property doesn't make you a person or entitle you to rights. A corporation isn't some sort of brain working in conjunction with board members. It's a fictional entity through and through that is allowed to own property by the state which gives it the license to even exist.
    I have no problem with the law being used against business, to the full extend, if they violated rights of people

  7. #1837
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    I have no problem with the law being used against business, to the full extend, if they violated rights of people
    Only, that's not what I asked. If a corporation is found guilty of human rights violations and civil rights violations, should a guy working in accounting who was given some company stock be sent to jail? Is he responsible for those human rights violations? Who is responsible? The corporation? Okay, then how will they (they - being the arbitrary person you'll pick to take the the blame) be punished? Will they be punished like biological people? If they won't be punished as biological persons would, how can they possibly be called persons? Or does person hood only extend to that which you are given a license to own?

    Surveyer basically pointed out the massive flaw in calling a corporation a "person" and believing they are entitled to rights as people are. If they are entitled the same way people are, then their punishments for breaking laws should be as harsh. However, they are not. If nothing else, this basically means we humans are second class citizens subjected to harsher penalties under the same law.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Only, that's not what I asked. If a corporation is found guilty of human rights violations and civil rights violations, should a guy working in accounting who was given some company stock be sent to jail? Is he responsible for those human rights violations? Who is responsible? The corporation? Okay, then how will they (they - being the arbitrary person you'll pick to take the the blame) be punished? Will they be punished like biological people? If they won't be punished as biological persons would, how can they possibly be called persons? Or does person hood only extend to that which you are given a license to own?

    Surveyer basically pointed out the massive flaw in calling a corporation a "person" and believing they are entitled to rights as people are. If they are entitled the same way people are, then their punishments for breaking laws should be as harsh. However, they are not. If nothing else, this basically means we humans are second class citizens subjected to harsher penalties under the same law.
    how can you punish individuals of a corporation which would be composed of many people, who would have nothing to do with and no knowledge of a crime the company they are working for is doing?

    if individuals of companies can be identified , in wrong doing.....a crime ....they should receive the full arm of the law, if not the company is fined and/or have their license pulled.

    if a government state, local, federal, commit a crime or a constitution violation, do they go to jail, how can you send government to jail?..the same applies to them

    governments violate constitutional law when they violate rights of the people.........people commit crimes when they violate the rights of other people.

    which is why governments cannot discriminate, because its a constitutional violation.

    if a person discriminates, its not a crime, who rights have they violated?...no one's...its only statutory laws which has been violated.

    the rights of the people, are superior to statutory law.

  9. #1839
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    how can you punish individuals of a corporation which would be composed of many people, who would have nothing to do with and no knowledge of a crime the company they are working for is doing?
    This is exactly where I wanted you.

    If I commit a crime, I can't place culpability on an abstract idea I had and pass down punishment to it. The fault lays squarely on my head as a physical person. So how is it even possible to call a corporation a person, with the same responsibilities, rights and benefits as a person and then decree that if the corporation commits a crime, you can arbitrarily pick who within it will be guilty of said crime?

    As I said, you're trying to have it both ways. If a corporation is a person then it should be treated as such in all aspects of the law and not those you arbitrarily pick.
    More simply, this is how your argument ends:

    1. A corporation is a person: Yes.
    2. A corporation who commits a crime is punished like a person: No.

    1. I am a person: Yes.
    2. If I commit a crime, I am punished as a person: Yes.

    -------

    So which is it? Are corporations persons subject to EVERY aspect of the law as all other persons, or are they persons who aren't subject to the laws as all persons? If they aren't subject to the same laws and punishments as persons, then that effectively puts them above citizens.

    The funniest part about this entire argument is that the founders pretty much warned against corporations being considered people because they didn't even satisfy the basic conditions for being persons.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 08-01-13 at 04:02 AM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  10. #1840
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    This is exactly where I wanted you.

    If I commit a crime, I can't place culpability on an abstract idea I had and pass down punishment to it. The fault lays squarely on my head as a physical person. So how is it even possible to call a corporation a person, with the same responsibilities, rights and benefits as a person and then decree that if the corporation commits a crime, you can arbitrarily pick who within it will be guilty of said crime?

    As I said, you're trying to have it both ways. If a corporation is a person then it should be treated as such in all aspects of the law and not those you arbitrarily pick.
    More simply, this is how your argument ends:

    1. A corporation is a person: Yes.
    2. A corporation who commits a crime is punished like a person: No.

    1. I am a person: Yes.
    2. If I commit a crime, I am punished as a person: Yes.

    -------

    So which is it? Are corporations persons subject to EVERY aspect of the law as all other persons, or are they persons who aren't subject to the laws as all persons? If they aren't subject to the same laws and punishments as persons, then that effectively puts them above citizens.

    The funniest part about this entire argument is that the founders pretty much warned against corporations being considered people because they didn't even satisfy the basic conditions for being persons.

    a corporation is a person stated by u.s. code ..I believe its in 1......i will post it later today.

    if a corporation commits a crime........and you cannot tie it to a person...what do you do.........arrest every person in the company, even if it could be thousands?...not possible.

    if the government commits a crime, not a constitutional violation....and no person is tied to the crime........does everyone in government go to jail?.

    every person, business ,union, organizations is listed as a person by government, because they all have to have rights, ...if any of them had no rights, they would be at the mercy of those who wished to take advantage of them.

    this thread has gone far from where it started, but again a business be it small or large has rights.....if it commits a crime, criminal activity, it will be fined and or shutdown. if a person of the company is found to be guilty of the crime he faces trial.

    but statutory laws....no... they don't override the constitutional law/ rights of people or business, unless the law could show what a person or business is doing could violate the rights of others

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