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Thread: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

  1. #1791
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Which has nothing to do with your continuing misuse of "person" from your US Code reference.


    Just because an entity of some kind has some similarities to another entity does not let you expand those similarities to include everything about them. Businesses are not persons.
    whether you want to admit it or not, using code 29 ....a business is considered a person by the government.

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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    can a business go to Washington and stand in line like a citizen can at the door of a senator of congressman.....yes they can, and they pay people to do it for them.
    there are people who provide a service, it is to stand in line for business in Washington, until there time to speak to their representative.
    how can you arrest a business which is composed of many people?.....only if a select individual has been accused of crime can one be arrested .
    the business can be charged with a crime, and made to pay a fine.
    this is a prime example of why constitutional violations do not apply to people or business, only crimes do.
    and constitutional violations are place against government only..... and not crimes, how can government fine themselves, or go to jail.
    You want another example of how persons and businesses are different? A person cannot be compelled to testify against himself.
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  3. #1793
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Courts use a legal fiction of treating corporations as artificial persons in order to allow the law to apply to corporations as a whole. This concept actually began with ancient Rome, where a business was considered to be a single, non-human body made up of many people. In the United States, being treated as an artificial person means that corporations have many of the same duties, responsibilities and protections as real people.

    Read more: Why Is a Corporation Considered an Artificial Person Under the Law? | eHow

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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    whether you want to admit it or not, using code 29 ....a business is considered a person by the government.
    Not unless you're specifically talking about laws in that sub-chapter of the US Code, which deals with the National Labor Relations Board, IIRC. We've been through this and you're flat-out wrong. IO suggest you get more experience with laws and legal documents because it's obvious you don't have any more of a clue now than you did 10 pages ago.
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You want another example of how persons and businesses are different? A person cannot be compelled to testify against himself.
    Being a separate "entity" (like an "artificial person") is the hallmark of the corporate form. Being an "entity" means that the corporation is not tied to any one person or group of people (like a partnership or a sole proprietorship), but exists separately from its officers, directors, and shareholders as a distinct form.

    The several advantages of a the corporate form may help us to map out why the corporate form is considered a separate entity or an "artificial person" under the law:


    1.Limited Liability: The corporation is treated as a separate entity under the law in part because it can incur its own debts and liabilities. This means that if you slipped and fell in a Walmart store, for example, you could sue Walmart itself (the corporation), and not the individual officers of Walmart. Walmart the corporation would be responsible for any judgments. The board of directors, officers, and shareholders would not be personally liable, except under rare circumstances called "piercing the veil," where the owner is not respecting the corporate form.
    2.1.The fact that you can sue a corporation may seem strange (because usually only PEOPLE can be sued), but the limited liability aspect of the corporate form is actually very important because it encourages the board of directors to make candid and risky business judgments, and it encourages shareholders to invest in the corporation. This ensures involvement, innovation, and good business strategies among people who might otherwise be scared away by lawsuits. It keeps our economy going.

    3.Continuity: Because the corporate form is a separate entity, it can survive its founders, its shareholders, and its board of directors, and is NOT tied to the life of any one person. This creates continuity for investors and employees and allows the business to keep going, uninterrupted and without fear of liquidation. This is not so with other business forms such as a partnership. Thus, the corporation is treated as a separate person under the law so that it can exist independent of individual people.

    4.Limited Rights as a "Person:" Because of these two main facets of the corporate form, several rights that we would consider to be individual rights have been given to corporations. For example, corporations can own property and other assets, can buy, sell, or lease property, and have very broad commercial rights so that the corporation can conduct business independent of an individual person and maintain continuity. Because corporations can own assets, they can pay off their debts, thus, it's also ties to limited liability. Corporations also have limited noncommercial rights like the right not to incriminate one's self which goes along with being able to be sued. Likewise, corporations have limited fourth amendment rights against searches and seizures and limited first amendment rights (although this is broadening), which are interwoven with the corporation's ability to own property and incur debt. This also continues to encourage corporate business decisions, although some doubt the latest reach of first amendment rights in Citizens United v. FEC, the latest Supreme Court case on this issue. .
    Last edited by Master PO; 07-28-13 at 04:09 AM.

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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    Courts use a legal fiction of treating corporations as artificial persons in order to allow the law to apply to corporations as a whole. This concept actually began with ancient Rome, where a business was considered to be a single, non-human body made up of many people. In the United States, being treated as an artificial person means that corporations have many of the same duties, responsibilities and protections as real people.

    Read more: Why Is a Corporation Considered an Artificial Person Under the Law? | eHow
    When the Constution has "artificial person" written into it we can talk. Until then your continued use of that document as the only basis for your arguments will continue to hinder you.

    But if you want to pull out court cases and use them as cites then I'll pull out the ones most obvious and on-point to this discussion, those concerning the Civil Rights Act.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Not unless you're specifically talking about laws in that sub-chapter of the US Code, which deals with the National Labor Relations Board, IIRC. We've been through this and you're flat-out wrong. IO suggest you get more experience with laws and legal documents because it's obvious you don't have any more of a clue now than you did 10 pages ago.
    can a business petition the government?...as a citizen does?

    can it be heard as a citizen is? is a business never charged with a constitutional violation or a crime, as a person is.

  8. #1798
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    <snip - preaching>
    I'm done reading your miles-long replies. If you can't make it succinct then it's probably garbage, since most of your other replies like this have also been garbage.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  9. #1799
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I'm done reading your miles-long replies. If you can't make it succinct then it's probably garbage, since most of your other replies like this have also been garbage.
    really?..........how about your look a the court case.... drama.

  10. #1800
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    can a business petition the government?...as a citizen does?

    can it be heard as a citizen is? is a business never charged with a constitutional violation or a crime, as a person is.
    I've already answered this, three posts ago. You continue in circles. Get a clue.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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