View Poll Results: Should the public accommodations portion of the law be repealed?

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Thread: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

  1. #1231
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    No. Zoning laws are different. They are not enacted by means of a signed contract. They are imposed.
    They are enacted by the duly elected representatives of the people through legal means authorized by State Constitutions and city charters under the law of the land.

    Those duly elected representatives of the people are legally empowered to enter into contracts, covenants and legal agreements in the name of the community they legally represent.

    cov·e·nant [kuhv-uh-nuhnt] Show IPA
    noun
    1.
    an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified.
    In this case, the formal agreement is entered into by the duly elected representatives of the people whom they legally represent and can act for.
    Last edited by haymarket; 07-01-13 at 10:44 AM.
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    They are enacted by the duly elected representatives of the people through legal means authorized by State Constitutions and city charters under the law of the land.

    Those duly elected representatives of the people are legally empowered to enter into contracts, covenants and legal agreements in the name of the community they legally represent.
    Yes, that is how zoning laws are different. They are imposed by the government, not voluntarily entered into by individuals through private contract.

    And the imposition of such laws punish vicitimless "crimes" and constitute a violation of property rights. Again, the government dictates that you can't engage in trade without a permission slip, then the government is violating your property rights.

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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Yes, that is how zoning laws are different. They are imposed by the government, not voluntarily entered into by individuals through private contract.

    And the imposition of such laws punish vicitimless "crimes" and constitute a violation of property rights. Again, the government dictates that you can't engage in trade without a permission slip, then the government is violating your property rights.
    Baloney. We the people elect representatives to enter into those contracts, covenants and legal agreements on our behalf. We have bestowed upon them that power through Constitution and law. It is not IMPOSED upon us by some dictator. This is America. This is not Wonderland where the Mad Hatter might hold sway.
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Baloney. We the people elect representatives to enter into those contracts, covenants and legal agreements on our behalf. We have bestowed upon them that power through Constitution and law. It is not IMPOSED upon us by some dictator. This is America. This is not Wonderland where the Mad Hatter might hold sway.
    Strawman. I didn't say they were imposed by a dictator. They are imposed by the duly elected government. But they are imposed nonetheless.

    That is the way in which zoning laws are different from a voluntary, contractual covenant.

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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Strawman. I didn't say they were imposed by a dictator. They are imposed by the duly elected government. But they are imposed nonetheless.

    That is the way in which zoning laws are different from a voluntary, contractual covenant.
    and that is the way that real life is different from libertarian wonderland
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    and that is the way that real life is different from libertarian wonderland
    Well it's really just a difference in what sort of laws one supports. Some people support making certain acts "crimes", even though they result in no victim. I see such laws as violations of property rights, so I oppose them.

    I support laws that protect property rights, not laws that violate property rights.

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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Well it's really just a difference in what sort of laws one supports. Some people support making certain acts "crimes", even though they result in no victim. I see such laws as violations of property rights, so I oppose them.

    I support laws that protect property rights, not laws that violate property rights.
    But you really don't. And your actions tell us that you don't. You freely live in communities with municipal zoning laws and you benefit from them. You enjoy the various results of improvements made from the use of eminent domain and you freely use them . You talk one game and live quite another.
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    But you really don't. And your actions tell us that you don't. You freely live in communities with municipal zoning laws and you benefit from them. You enjoy the various results of improvements made from the use of eminent domain and you freely use them . You talk one game and live quite another.
    By "support", I meant that I argue in favor of laws that support property rights. In future, when I say "support" or "oppose", you can take it to mean "arguing in favor" or "argue against".

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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    By "support", I meant that I argue in favor of laws that support property rights. In future, when I say "support" or "oppose", you can take it to mean "arguing in favor" or "argue against".
    Yes - I understand that you differentiate what you give lip service to from what you actually do in real life.
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    Well there's certainly nothing wrong with the owners in a subdivision entering into a covenant that would prevent them or any future owner from doing so.
    No one needs a contract, that's what zoning laws are for.


    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    However, to establish the victimless "crime" of engaging in trade without a government-issued permission slip is definitely a violation of property rights.
    You can't even manage to show any kind of "property rights" like you've been describing without resorting the court's interpretations and now you're trying to stretch those rights to cover businesses like they're personal property instead of business property. LOL!
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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