View Poll Results: Should the public accommodations portion of the law be repealed?

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Thread: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

  1. #1211
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    all the time, by governments.

    your property is yours its does not belong to government to control, if you commit a crime, put people in danger,...then government can act, until then, ..the government is mute on the subject.
    Once you open Ito the public, you change the relationship and are subject to different rules. Sorry, but this was a good and proper move. Courts agree.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Of course there are differences between a person and a business. A business is a type of organization formed by a person. But businesses do not have minds. They can not think. It is the persons behind the business that sets the policy, and it is the persons behind the business that would be discriminating. I find it very odd to have to explain this to someone.
    And yet, it's the businesses that take the heat with a few very rare exceptions.

    Given recent laws (regulations, actually) specifically designating certain company officers as being responsible for certain financial decisions, it's clearly not as obvious as you claim. Did the CEO of Bank of America get fined for illegal business practices or did Bank of America get fined? Did Jobs take a personal hit when Apple had to pay up for a patent violation? Obviously not - other than maybe a stock drop. When a business violates discrimination laws, the owner isn't hauled off to jail. The business is fined is often given certain actions it must take to alleviate the problem. In these and many other ways, businesses are much different than individuals.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    You can't. Otherwise there would be no point of the law, no? All those racists businesses could just say "we aren't OTTP" and continue on exactly the same as always.
    No, they can't "just say" - they have to apply for a license as a private business instead of an OTTP business. It far more than just a declaration.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Zoning laws are irrelevant to this discussion, which deals with public accommodation and discrimination laws.
    Zoning laws are part of city planning and have everything to do with the issue. Private establishments aren't necessarily allowed everywhere that OTTP businesses are allowed. That's why having a private (a non-OTTP) business may have it's drawbacks and is more than just a declaration of being non-OTTP.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Anyone can enter a government building because government buildings are required to serve all citizens equally under the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment. That amendment does not apply to private property, hence the part that reads "under the law." Sorry, your example is irrelevant. We are talking about private property, not government property.
    Let me remind you of your starting post on this aspect of our discussion:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Furthermore, I will ask you the same question I asked Boo Radley. How do you define "public"? A club is not a public accommodation, but it sure seems public to me. There are lots of people at clubs, and the doors are opened to them.
    You asked HOW DO [*I*] DEFINE "PUBLIC" and then proceeded to apparently ignore my answers. I'll copy your own statement so there is zero misunderstanding on the subject of what I mean when I say OTTP - "Anyone can enter and do business". Obviously, minors are excluded from bars/strip clubs/etc and there are a few other exceptions from similar laws (like shirts and shoes in a restaurant.). In other words when I say OTTP I mean "all we care about is the color of your money". You asked what I meant and that's what I mean.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 07-01-13 at 07:36 AM.
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    right to commerce.
    But not a right to open a business. You, personally, can do whatever you want in that respect. Your business cannot, that's why they're called "business regulations".
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    So are you saying that one should lose his property rights if he decides to enter the market? Why should someone lose the right to control his body and property just because he chooses to engage in trade?
    You, personally, don't loose anything if you engage in personal trade. Your business is not a person. When you're working at a business you own you're just another worker. You just happen to have more power over the decisions being made there - but they're still business decisions, not personal ones.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 07-01-13 at 07:49 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    right to property..violated all the time.
    LOL! What right to property?!? LOL!
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  6. #1216
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    Yes, it includes all private property. Private property owners have a right to determine what public they are open to. They can limit the public as much as they want. Preventing them from doing so is a violation of their property rights. Sorry, that's just the definition of private property itself. If you want to argue against that, fine. But admit you are arguing against property rights. That is the honest thing to do.
    Honest is knowing it's not provate property rights being discussed, it's business's rights. Not the same thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    The whole point of this topic is to say that the law is wrong, so such a statement is irrelevant. The reality is private property owners have the right to exclude anyone, period. The law violates those rights. If a third party entity tells me what I can or cannot do with my property then it ceases to fully be mine and thus ceases to fully be private property.
    Do you deduct the utility bills you pay at home from your income? No. Does your business do that? It should if it's smart.

    Do you deduct your rent from your personal income? No. Does your business? It should if it's smart.

    Why is there a difference? Why does your business get to skate and you, personally, do not? And let's not go off on some anarchist tangent with the taxes - just answer the question at hand.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 07-01-13 at 08:02 AM.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  7. #1217
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    individual people are being denied there right to propriety and right to association, -------->becuase of discrimination laws.....which are on the books as statutory laws.
    Individuals are being denied nothing. Business don't have the same rights as individuals.


    We're talking about businesses here, not your personal transactions and social groups.



    BTW - I think you'll find the Constitution is also technically statute law.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 07-01-13 at 08:19 AM.
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    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You, personally, don't loose anything if you engage in personal trade. Your business is not a person.
    You are correct. My business is not a person. My business is the activity in which I am engaged. Of course activities don't have rights or property, only people do.

    Which leaves my earlier questions unanswered: Should one lose his property rights if he decides to enter the market? Why should someone lose the right to control his body and property just because he chooses to engage in trade?

  9. #1219
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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Federalist View Post
    You are correct. My business is not a person. My business is the activity in which I am engaged. Of course activities don't have rights or property, only people do.

    Which leaves my earlier questions unanswered: Should one lose his property rights if he decides to enter the market? Why should someone lose the right to control his body and property just because he chooses to engage in trade?
    It's not just a matter of engaging in trade, it's a matter of licensing a business that is OTTP (open to the public), which is a different subject. When you open a business it's not your "personal" property, it's your business's property. IF you license an OTTP business it's a specific kind of business, one that is open to the public. If you have no intention of being open to the public then you should not license your business as such. At the very least, that's fraud and falsification of government documents.


    And - if you want to argue anarchy this isn't the place. If you want to argue the current topic, then we're good.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

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    Re: Do You Agree with John Stossel?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    It's not just a matter of engaging in trade, it's a matter of licensing a business that is OTTP (open to the public), which is a different subject. When you open a business it's not your "personal" property, it's your business's property. IF you license an OTTP business it's a specific kind of business, one that is open to the public. If you have no intention of being open to the public then you should not license your business as such. At the very least, that's fraud and falsification of government documents.

    And - if you want to argue anarchy this isn't the place. If you want to argue the current topic, then we're good.
    Preventing someone from trading with others without a permission slip is a violation of property rights in the first place.

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