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Moral question (don't click if you're squeamish)...

Should the sadistic billionaire's offer be legal?

  • Total voters
    30
Peter Grimm said:
We know prostitution causes a wide array of psychological problems (to see some of the data, I'd redirect you back to the original thread where I've posted some). It's not simply an incidental relationship - real people are actually getting hurt, even dying, every day as a result.

In a sense, Johns are like the sadist in my example: they don't care if they are hurting someone else, as long as they get their pleasure out of the experience. However, the pleasure they derive is far outweighed by the pain derived by the victim (the prostitute).
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You're making the same mistake the drug warriors make, blaming problems caused by an acts prohibition on the act itself.

Getting high doesn't arm drug cartels, making drugs illegal and therefore extremely profitable does.

Much of what you present as proof that prostitution causes problems are actually problems caused by prostitution's PROHIBITION and not the selling of sex itself.
 
Peter Grimm said:
This is in direct response to the "should prostitution be legal" thread, and is intended to make you think. It surprises me how many of you answered "yes" to the question, this in spite of all the data which shows prostitutes suffer from a variety of diseases and psychological disorders - including heightened suicide rates - as a direct result of their profession.

Therefore, you are saying it's OK to pay someone to harm themselves as long as both parties are consenting. Fine, but how far are you willing to take this logic?

Here is a hypothetical question, answer it "yes" or "no."



Suppose a sadistic billionaire went around offering poor people a million dollars each to have their eyes removed. The procedure would be carried out by a licensed plastic surgeon, under sedation, in a certified medical facility. Should that be legal? Both parties are consenting.

What if the sadistic billionaire offered one of your parents, or your adult children, and they accepted? Should that be legal?

What if the sadistic billionaire offered someone high on drugs, or a heavily addicted drug addict? What if they offered the elderly, or mentally impaired?

Is it simply a case of two consenting adults involved in a financial transaction, or is there more to it? Is the sadistic billionaire taking advantage of the poor person's problems?
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I think everything you said should be legal, but regulated. In the case you offered, it would definitely be necessary for an official to make sure the person is doing it of their own free will.

And by the way, none of this makes any sense in relation to prostitution. That's not necessarily "harm", that's opening yourself to possible harm. Having your eyes removed a direct harm.

Peter Grimm said:
But it's fine to take advantage of anyone else purely for sadistic pleasure? Sorry, but that makes me sick.

This is why I can't support libertarians.
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You can't support libertarians because we believe in a separation of church and state and you want christianity ruling the government.
 
Peter Grimm said:
This is in direct response to the "should prostitution be legal" thread, and is intended to make you think. It surprises me how many of you answered "yes" to the question, this in spite of all the data which shows prostitutes suffer from a variety of diseases and psychological disorders - including heightened suicide rates - as a direct result of their profession.

Therefore, you are saying it's OK to pay someone to harm themselves as long as both parties are consenting. Fine, but how far are you willing to take this logic?

Here is a hypothetical question, answer it "yes" or "no."



Suppose a sadistic billionaire went around offering poor people a million dollars each to have their eyes removed. The procedure would be carried out by a licensed plastic surgeon, under sedation, in a certified medical facility. Should that be legal? Both parties are consenting.

What if the sadistic billionaire offered one of your parents, or your adult children, and they accepted? Should that be legal?

What if the sadistic billionaire offered someone high on drugs, or a heavily addicted drug addict? What if they offered the elderly, or mentally impaired?

Is it simply a case of two consenting adults involved in a financial transaction, or is there more to it? Is the sadistic billionaire taking advantage of the poor person's problems?
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I imagine many if not most young ladies go into prostitution out of desperation, a choice they would not willingly make under optimal life circumstances. A caring person would try to offer selfless help to ladies facing such desperation not to wreck their lives by turning to selling their bodies, or supporting charities that offer such help. Rescue Project | Dream Center

Selfish SOBs will say, sure I'll help you out. Tough times can be challenging. All you have to do is let me....
 
Peter Grimm said:
What would cause such problems to self-correct? It's human nature, for some more than others, to objectify others. Ever see Clockwork Orange?
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Because not solving problems is absurd?

How would you know unless you tried? Every parent worries about self-correction in their children, if they are armed with enough good stuff, and with a little luck, they grow from the experience. If you baby them forever, you stunt their development and ultimately you ensure they can never really learn how to make such choices responsibly. If your child got in a car accident irresponsibly the first week they have a car, do you take the car forever?

A big element of trust in there. If you never trust them to succeed on their own, why would they ever trust themselves? How could they ever know if they can be trusted? You cheat them of all such things.
 
Peter Grimm said:
That's a decent point. A bit defeatist for my taste though. I think, given the problems we know these women go through, we're at least obligated to try to help.
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Legalization is helping. When you legalize prostitution, you take away the power of exploitative pimps whose control requires prostitution to be underground. You enable a more safe and fair environment for the women and men who do become prostitutes.
 
Peter Grimm said:
But it's fine to take advantage of anyone else purely for sadistic pleasure? Sorry, but that makes me sick.

This is why I can't support libertarians.
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I'm sorry you feel that way. If someone wants to sell their eyes, which only a blind person would do, then they should have the right to do so. Though, you make the mistake of assuming that all prostitutes are desperate for money, some of them prefer the lifestyle. I'm not talking about the typical road side prostitutes, but one's that work in brothels who have certain regulations and rules that they follow which includes their clients that visit them.

Also, a man lost a couple of million dollars for eyes that he can't even use; who got taken advantage of?
 
Henrin said:
Is it not their right to sell their sight if they see it fit to survive? I would say it is, but I would also say it's extremely stupid and there is better ways to get ahead. I think allowing people more choices even if those choices are poor is a good thing.
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Nobody would sell their sight unless they were absolutely desperate. The question is, do we, as a society, have a duty to protect those who would be that desperate?
 
What if...? said:
You're making the same mistake the drug warriors make, blaming problems caused by an acts prohibition on the act itself.

Getting high doesn't arm drug cartels, making drugs illegal and therefore extremely profitable does.

Much of what you present as proof that prostitution causes problems are actually problems caused by prostitution's PROHIBITION and not the selling of sex itself.
Click to expand...

Hookers kill themselves because it's illegal?
 
DashingAmerican said:
That's cruelty to animals. That's illegal. Your hypothetical gets more and more insane.
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Alright, but puppies are put down legally all the time. What if I wanted to buy puppies from people, and pay a dog pound to have them all put down, just for the enjoyment of watching the puppies die? Should that be legal?
 
Peter Grimm said:
Eye transplants don't exist. Anyway, it's my hypothetical. In this situation, the billionaire is simply a sadist, he feeds the eyeballs to his pampered dog Fluffy.
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No not the whole eye can be transplanted but the cornea is transplanted. But I suppose Fluffy doesnt care about that. So then we are left with a rich bastard paying someone to mutilate themselves. A person would need a bit off their rocker to go for that.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
No not the whole eye can be transplanted but the cornea is transplanted. But I suppose Fluffy doesnt care about that. So then we are left with a rich bastard paying someone to mutilate themselves. A person would need a bit off their rocker to go for that.
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A million bucks is a lot of money to some people.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Hookers kill themselves because it's illegal?
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Is it that hard to imagine such a case? Would you not be ashamed of doing something for most of your life knowing that it is illegal and that people like you, for example, see it as a crime against societal values? Perhaps if these hookers thought that what they did wasn't that bad, which would happen by making it legal, they wouldn't have to struggle with their inner self, day and night, as you seem to believe they do.
 
kingsbridge said:
Is it that hard to imagine such a case? Would you not be ashamed of doing something for most of your life knowing that it is illegal and that people like you, for example, see it as a crime against societal values? Perhaps if these hookers thought that what they did wasn't that bad, which would happen by making it legal, they wouldn't have to struggle with their inner self, day and night, as you seem to believe they do.
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Why aren't drug dealers killing themselves at a rate of 40:1 compared to the general population?

Why aren't people who download illegal music? Get the point?
 
Peter Grimm said:
Alright, but puppies are put down legally all the time. What if I wanted to buy puppies from people, and pay a dog pound to have them all put down, just for the enjoyment of watching the puppies die? Should that be legal?
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Dogs can't consent, people can.
 
Peter Grimm said:
But should it be that way? Should we really be allowed to take advantage of each other in such a way? I think we need to acknowledge that certain people in society are more vulnerable than others, and offer them some sort of protection.
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If being strapped for money makes one THAT vulnerable then we would have a lot more prostitution and other morally questionable things taking place..I can't imagine what goes through the mind of an individual who feels selling them self or parts of their body is the only way to go.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Why aren't drug dealers killing themselves at a rate of 40:1 compared to the general population?

Why aren't people who download illegal music? Get the point?
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Drug dealers don't kill themselves because they kill each other before they get the chance to.

No; I don't really get the point. All your examples seem disconnected from the actual problem, Grimm... But, okay. It may be just me who doesn't get it.
 
straykatz said:
If being strapped for money makes one THAT vulnerable then we would have a lot more prostitution and other morally questionable things taking place..I can't imagine what goes through the mind of an individual who feels selling them self or parts of their body is the only way to go.
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Just because it's hard to imagine doesn't mean it isn't real. There are people out there who are seriously desperate.
 
Peter Grimm said:
You didn't answer the question, though.
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The OP asks if two consenting adults can make a transaction together that involves nobody but themselves, the answer is yes and is always going to be yes. Be it $10 or $100,000,000.

As I said, puppies can't consent.

Your hypothetical gets further from your own original post.
 
Peter Grimm said:
Eye transplants don't exist. Anyway, it's my hypothetical. In this situation, the billionaire is simply a sadist, he feeds the eyeballs to his pampered dog Fluffy.
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They're called "corneal transplants". They don't replace the entire eye but it makes the donor just as blind, which is why they use the deceased just like any other organ transplant.
 
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