View Poll Results: Should the sadistic billionaire's offer be legal?

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Thread: Moral question (don't click if you're squeamish)...

  1. #171
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    Re: Moral question (don't click if you're squeamish)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Is it OK to sleep with a hooker if she's drunk or under the effects of drugs?
    Is it OK to sleep with a date if she's drunk or under the influence of drugs?
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    Re: Moral question (don't click if you're squeamish)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Evidence?
    This article examines violence in legalized brothels in Nevada. Debates over prostitution policies in the United States have long focused on questions of safety and risk. These discourses inevitably invoke the coupling of violence and prostitution, though systematic examinations of the relationship between the two are sparse. This article explores the issue of violence in the Nevada brothel industry. By drawing on interviews with prostitutes, managers, and policy makers, this article examines both prostitutes' perceptions of safety and risk and brothel managers' practices designed to mitigate violence. Discourses relate to three types of violence: interpersonal violence against prostitutes, violence against community order, and sexually transmitted diseases as violence. The authors conclude by arguing that the legalization of prostitution brings a level of public scrutiny, official regulation, and bureaucratization to brothels that decreases the risk of these 3 types of systematic violence.
    Violence and Legalized Brothel Prostitution in Nevada: Examining Safety, Risk, and Prostitution Policy
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
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  3. #173
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    Re: Moral question (don't click if you're squeamish)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    This is in direct response to the "should prostitution be legal" thread, and is intended to make you think. It surprises me how many of you answered "yes" to the question, this in spite of all the data which shows prostitutes suffer from a variety of diseases and psychological disorders - including heightened suicide rates - as a direct result of their profession.

    Therefore, you are saying it's OK to pay someone to harm themselves as long as both parties are consenting. Fine, but how far are you willing to take this logic?

    Here is a hypothetical question, answer it "yes" or "no."



    Suppose a sadistic billionaire went around offering poor people a million dollars each to have their eyes removed. The procedure would be carried out by a licensed plastic surgeon, under sedation, in a certified medical facility. Should that be legal? Both parties are consenting.

    What if the sadistic billionaire offered one of your parents, or your adult children, and they accepted? Should that be legal?

    What if the sadistic billionaire offered someone high on drugs, or a heavily addicted drug addict? What if they offered the elderly, or mentally impaired?

    Is it simply a case of two consenting adults involved in a financial transaction, or is there more to it? Is the sadistic billionaire taking advantage of the poor person's problems?
    I think your view on prostitution is severely biased. When the conditions are right, consensual sex does not cause or worsen illnesses or mental impairment. When prostitution is legal, it's even easier to control negative side effects such as illnesses, forced prostitution and human trafficking.

    I agree that prostitution is ugly and disgusting, but I see no reason why it should be illegal. It's "mankind's oldest business" and always will be, criminalization will never make it go away, and legalization can minimize ugly problems such as violence and force around prostitution, and allows prostitutes to enjoy the same benefits other professions enjoy too, such as health control and work contracts.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

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    Re: Moral question (don't click if you're squeamish)...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Aren't you going to give us a post number at least. That thread is like 40 pages long, and I don't remember you posting any links in that thread.
    Ask nicely and you shall receive...

    The average age of entry into prostitution is 13 years (M.H. Silbert and A.M. Pines, 1982, "Victimization of street prostitutes, Victimology: An International Journal, 7: 122-133) or 14 years (D.Kelly Weisberg, 1985, Children of the Night: A Study of Adolescent Prostitution, Lexington, Mass, Toronto). Most of these 13 or 14 year old girls were recruited or coerced into prostitution. Others were "traditional wives" without job skills who escaped from or were abandoned by abusive husbands and went into prostitution to support themselves and their children. (Denise Gamache and Evelina Giobbe, Prostitution: Oppression Disguised as Liberation, National Coalition against Domestic Violence, 1990)

    Estimates of the prevalence of incest among prostitutes range from 65% to 90%. The Council for Prostitution Alternatives, Portland, Oregon Annual Report in 1991 stated that: 85% of prostitute/clients reported history of sexual abuse in childhood; 70% reported incest. The higher percentages (80%-90%) of reports of incest and childhood sexual assaults of prostitutes come from anecdotal reports and from clinicians working with prostitutes (interviews with Nevada psychologists cited by Patricia Murphy, Making the Connections: women, work, and abuse, 1993, Paul M. Deutsch Press, Orlando, Florida; see also Rita Belton, "Prostitution as Traumatic Reenactment," 1992, International Society for Traumatic Stress Annual Meeting, Los Angeles, CA M.H. Silbert and A.M. Pines, 1982, "Victimization of street prostitutes," Victimology: An International Journal, 7: 122-133; C. Bagley and L Young, 1987, "Juvenile Prostitution and child sexual abuse: a controlled study," Canadian Journal of Community Mental Health, Vol 6: 5-26.)

    80% of prostitution survivors at the WHISPER Oral History Project reported that their customers showed them pornography to illustrate the kinds of sexual activities in which they wanted to engage. 52% of the women stated that pornography played a significant role in teaching them what was expected of them as prostitutes. 30% reported that their pimps regularly exposed them to pornography in order to indoctrinate them into an acceptance of the practices depicted. (A facilitator's guide to Prostitution: a matter of violence against women, 1990, WHISPER - Women Hurt in Systems of Prostitution Engaged in Revolt Minneapolis, MN)

    90% of prostituted women interviewed by WHISPER had pimps while in prostitution (Evelina Giobbe, 1987, WHISPER Oral History Project, Minneapolis, Minnesota).

    "About 80% of women in prostitution have been the victim of a rape. It's hard to talk about this because..the experience of prostitution is just like rape. Prostitutes are raped, on the average, eight to ten times per year. They are the most raped class of women in the history of our planet. " (Susan Kay Hunter and K.C. Reed, July, 1990 "Taking the side of bought and sold rape," speech at National Coalition against Sexual Assault, Washington, D.C. ) Other studies report 68% to 70% of women in prostitution being raped (M Silbert, "Compounding factors in the rape of street prostitutes," in A.W. Burgess, ed., Rape and Sexual Assault II, Garland Publishing, 1988; Melissa Farley and Howard Barkan, "Prostitution, Violence, and Posttraumatic Stress Disorder," 1998, Women & Health.)

    78% of 55 women who sought help from the Council for Prostitution Alternatives in 1991 reported being raped an average of 16 times a year by pimps, and were raped 33 times a year by johns. (Susan Kay Hunter, Council for Prostitution Alternatives Annual Report, 1991, Portland, Oregon) 85% of prostitutes are raped by pimps. (Council on Prostitution Alternatives, Portland, 1994)

    Prostitution is an act of violence against women which is intrinsically traumatizing. In a study of 475 people in prostitution (including women, men, and the transgendered) from five countries (South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, USA, and Zambia):

    62% reported having been raped in prostitution. 73% reported having experienced physical assault in prostitution. 72% were currently or formerly homeless. 92% stated that they wanted to escape prostitution immediately. (Melissa Farley, Isin Baral, Merab Kiremire, Ufuk Sezgin, "Prostitution in Five Countries: Violence and Posttraumatic Stress Disorder" (1998) Feminism & Psychology 8 (4): 405-426)

    A Canadian Report on Prostitution and Pornography concluded that girls and women in prostitution have a mortality rate 40 times higher than the national average. ( Special Committee on Pornography and Prostitution, 1985, Pornography and Prostitution in Canada 350.) In one study, 75% of women in escort prostitution had attempted suicide. Prostituted women comprised 15% of all completed suicides reported by hospitals. (Letter from Susan Kay Hunter, Council for Prostitution Alternatives, Jan 6, 1993, cited by Phyllis Chesler in "A Woman's Right to Self-Defense: the case of Aileen Carol Wuornos," in Patriarchy: Notes of an Expert Witness, 1994, Common Courage Press, Monroe, Maine.)

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    Re: Moral question (don't click if you're squeamish)...

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Yes to all.

    There are people who pay money to have body parts cut off. There are people who pay money to die. There are people who do all kinds of things.

    Now, re: your main argument here, which is actually about at what point it can be considered coercion, banning people from doing things is not the answer.

    The answer is for society to gravitate to a point where few people are desperate enough to be coerced. Because at the end of the day, punishing them for being desperate is not only cruel, but also completely counterproductive. You're just making their situation even worse.

    And it's worth noting that in some societies where prostitution is legal and fewer people are desperate, there are some people who prostitute because they genuinely enjoy it. And there are others who just don't mind it as a means to a different career ends, and that's fine too. These people, being more empowered and more legally accepted, take greater measures to protect their health.

    Not all prostitutes are coerced, and not all prostitutes are psychologically or physically damaged.

    I wonder, do you feel the same way about porn? After all, porn is just prostitution with a video recorder.
    You made a lot of claims there, can you back them up with studies?

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    Re: Moral question (don't click if you're squeamish)...

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Is it OK to sleep with a date if she's drunk or under the influence of drugs?
    No, that's called date rape.

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    Re: Moral question (don't click if you're squeamish)...

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    I think your view on prostitution is severely biased. When the conditions are right, consensual sex does not cause or worsen illnesses or mental impairment. When prostitution is legal, it's even easier to control negative side effects such as illnesses, forced prostitution and human trafficking.

    I agree that prostitution is ugly and disgusting, but I see no reason why it should be illegal. It's "mankind's oldest business" and always will be, criminalization will never make it go away, and legalization can minimize ugly problems such as violence and force around prostitution, and allows prostitutes to enjoy the same benefits other professions enjoy too, such as health control and work contracts.
    Severely biased? Oh please explain that one.

  8. #178
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    Re: Moral question (don't click if you're squeamish)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    So that doesn't throw a red flag up for you? Hey, here's this profession that pretty much only drug users and mentally unstable people get in to... where the women are 40 times more likely to kill themselves?

    I don't know man. I think we should be helping these women, not enabling their demise. Most adults are capable of looking out for themselves, but there is a small percentage who need to be looked after. We can't just enable them to destroy themselves.
    the drugs infested prostitution is that which is the most visible and most talked about and is tied to the explosive use of drugs in some countries (for example the US). Prostitution is much more than that kind of prostitution. The street kind should be stamped out because it is modern slavery to some level, people are misusing the need for drugs to enslave women into prostitution.

    Some kinds of prostitution should be regulated IMHO, monthly health checks, mandatory condom use etc. etc. etc. If it is legal and regulated you can check into it and make sure people aren't forced into it or get into it for drugs use, so that you can help them and take away the reasons for their prostitution. Blindly making it illegal and jailing these women is not the answer IMHO.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

  9. #179
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    Re: Moral question (don't click if you're squeamish)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    No, that's called date rape.
    Not if you're both drunk or high. You should get your facts straight.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  10. #180
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    Re: Moral question (don't click if you're squeamish)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    the drugs infested prostitution is that which is the most visible and most talked about and is tied to the explosive use of drugs in some countries (for example the US). Prostitution is much more than that kind of prostitution. The street kind should be stamped out because it is modern slavery to some level, people are misusing the need for drugs to enslave women into prostitution.

    Some kinds of prostitution should be regulated IMHO, monthly health checks, mandatory condom use etc. etc. etc. If it is legal and regulated you can check into it and make sure people aren't forced into it or get into it for drugs use, so that you can help them and take away the reasons for their prostitution. Blindly making it illegal and jailing these women is not the answer IMHO.
    I don't think we should jail the women, I think we should jail the men.

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