View Poll Results: Is Edward Snowden a Hero or a Traitor

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    19 67.86%
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Thread: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

  1. #21
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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Abuses of the law destroy the moral authority of the law, and with it any need to obey it.
    Abuses that have not yet been demonstrated. In any case, the law he's by all accounts guilty of violating is an offense regardless of whether or not the abuse actually occurred.

  2. #22
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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Which means nothing as a response to what I said. Responding to a situation where Institution X is abusing its power in secret by saying "you should report the abuse of power to Institution X in secret" is nonsensical. It is an empty, irrational argument.
    That only makes sense if you think the American government is monolithic. With the bickering between parties and branches of government, you should know that's not at all the case.

    One person basically decided that he was the ultimate arbiter of what was right. That he, alone, should decide what the world knew. That he, above scores of other people- all of whom were either elected or appointed by those elected- knew what was best. You people go on and on and about fascism and dictatorship and yet you support this guy who took things into his own hands above a multitude of people whose jobs were to actually provide oversight on this.

    Pretty ironic and hypocritical. You're not against a person calling the shots however he wants to, everyone else be damned, you're just against someone doing it when you don't agree with the decisions. At least be honest about that, don't pretend you're against dictatorial situations.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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  3. #23
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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    Abuses that have not yet been demonstrated. In any case, the law he's by all accounts guilty of violating is an offense regardless of whether or not the abuse actually occurred.
    The law that he is accountable is to one Americans feel increasingly unable to respect. Like its something that didn't originate with us and doesn't reflect who we are as a people.

    Once people don't respect the law as a protective force for their community, the government that administers it either has to make them mortally afraid for their lives and that of their families or reform itself.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

  4. #24
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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    The Inspector General of what? The NSA? The same organization that implemented the program? No.The same Congressional committees that were already aware of the program and continued to approve it? No. Again, you are proposing that someone trust the institution he is accusing of abusing their power to seriously evaluate their behavior in private.

    Then, you casually say that he had "avenues" to do about this in another way without seeming to know anything about those "other ways".

    That is absurd and lazy.

    It may absolve him on a legal level - that remains to be seen. On ethical grounds, it certainly does.
    I find it hard to believe that if demonstrable abuse were in fact occurring, he would have failed to find a sympathetic ear (especially given the political opportunity to impugn the current administration and/or the tendency of the left to reject portions of the Patriot Act). All in all a useless debate though, as it changes not a bit the framework set in place. Again, the likelihood of failure through legal means does not justify running roughshod over the system itself.

    What else ya want? Not a legal scholar by any means.

    Those are simply the facts of the matter. If you want to rationalize his actions then by all means.

    Not in my estimation, but I understand the sentiment.

  5. #25
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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    The law that he is accountable is to one Americans feel increasingly unable to respect. Like its something that didn't originate with us and doesn't reflect who we are as a people.

    Once people don't respect the law as a protective force for their community, the government that administers it either has to make them mortally afraid for their lives and that of their families or reform itself.
    I'll assume you're speaking of the provision about leaking documents related to national security, as Snowden was not in any way obligated to work for the NSA or participate in the activities in question.

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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    The law that he is accountable is to one Americans feel increasingly unable to respect. Like its something that didn't originate with us and doesn't reflect who we are as a people.
    You're not going to have a referendum on every policy at a state level. Especially things that need to be kept secret. What is the government supposed to do, send out a letter to every American citizen and put a 'SHHHH DON'T SAY ANYTHING' at the end?

    Here's the thing: there are people that are responsible for the protection of their populace and then there's the populace. The populace doesn't think about security, doesn't take any responsibility for it, and only thinks about it when they want to complain- either because the security measures annoy or insult them (like now), or because something slipped past the security. That's why policymakers and such really don't care much for the opinion of the populace. The populace isn't going to be happy either way, so they should at least shut up.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  7. #27
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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    I'll assume you're speaking of the provision about leaking documents related to national security, as Snowden was not in any way obligated to work for the NSA or participate in the activities in question.
    I'm using the word "law" abstractly as a stand-in for our entire national security policy. Collecting the personal information of tens of millions of our citizens is something that your average American likely feels the people should be consulted on. That is, it ought to be debated and contested, and in all probability, rejected as too intrusive.

    In contrast to that sentiment, the government takes the view that it has a right to do so based on laws like the Patriot Act that very few Americans (even those who supported them) feel as though they were deeply engaged with or that it really reflects who we are as a people.

    When first composed, the Patriot Act was considered bad enough by people across the political spectrum because it gave the government the right to intrude into the privacy of a handful of socially marginalized people. Yet it seems as though its parameters took a big leap forward.

    Its part of the trend where the government has become extremely responsive to special interest groups, patterning almost all policies after what such groups desire or have proposed, and the growing sense (among the middle class in particular) that ordinary Americans have no real voice in our government.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 06-12-13 at 10:30 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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  8. #28
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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Send a drone to Hong Kong.
    "With me everything turns into mathematics."
    "It is not enough to have a good mind. The main thing is to use it well."
    "It is truth very certain that, when it is not in one's power to determine what is true, we ought to follow what is more probable." -- Rene Descartes

  9. #29
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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathematician View Post
    Send a drone to Hong Kong.
    I think last time a criminal ran to Hong Kong, we sent in Batman after him.

    is edward snowden a hero or traitor?-darkknight03-jpg
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  10. #30
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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    You're not going to have a referendum on every policy at a state level. Especially things that need to be kept secret. What is the government supposed to do, send out a letter to every American citizen and put a 'SHHHH DON'T SAY ANYTHING' at the end?

    Here's the thing: there are people that are responsible for the protection of their populace and then there's the populace. The populace doesn't think about security, doesn't take any responsibility for it, and only thinks about it when they want to complain- either because the security measures annoy or insult them (like now), or because something slipped past the security. That's why policymakers and such really don't care much for the opinion of the populace. The populace isn't going to be happy either way, so they should at least shut up.
    That works great when the leadership is responsible and deeply invested in the well being of their people and the future of the country. That's not something that can be said to characterize our present government, which is seeded with greedy and vicious people who get selected through procedures that have long since been overtaken by special interest groups and pushed out the influence of ordinary Americans.

    I'm certainly not non-critical of the general populace. The entire situation we are in is the result of a collective disengagement of the American people, who allowed our political parties and institutions to get taken over piece by piece, refusing to resist or oppose except in arbitrary, partisan, and mostly unhelpful ways. We have a disillusioned public that is complicit in its own misery and loss of control and a government of greedy, vicious rulers totally under the sway special interest groups who only want too put as much of their burdens as they can't get away on the rest of society.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 06-12-13 at 10:42 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

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