View Poll Results: Is Edward Snowden a Hero or a Traitor

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    9 32.14%
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    19 67.86%
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Thread: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

  1. #11
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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Interesting. So you propose that he should have brought up the issues he saw with the surveillance program to the very institution that created, implemented and continuously approved the programs in all three branches of government - to the same institution whose members have made it very clear that they see no problem with the programs?

    And this, in your mind, would have done what?
    Snowden, according to legal authorities, was free to report what he felt was criminal activity or abuses of authority to Congressional authorities or the Inspector General in this case.

    No clue, but the mere potential or even overwhelming likelihood of not getting the desired result from legal recourse does not justify taking the illegal route.

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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    Snowden, according to legal authorities, was free to report what he felt was criminal activity or abuses of authority to Congressional authorities or the Inspector General in this case.
    Which means nothing as a response to what I said. Responding to a situation where Institution X is abusing its power in secret by saying "you should report the abuse of power to Institution X in secret" is nonsensical. It is an empty, irrational argument.

    No clue, but the mere potential or even overwhelming likelihood of not getting the desired result from legal recourse does not justify taking the illegal route.
    If what's being revealed is an abuse of power, then yes, it does justify the illegal route. The law is not the supreme good.

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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    My guess is that he was trying to be a hero, not a traitor ... time will tell which one it is, or it may be much ado about nothing ... my guess is that credit card companies and other private agencies violate our privacy much more and know much more about us than the NSA does ...

  4. #14
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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Which means nothing as a response to what I said.

    Responding to a situation where Institution X is abusing its power in secret by saying "you should report the abuse of power to Institution X in secret" is nonsensical. It is an empty, irrational argument.


    If what's being revealed is an abuse of power, then yes, it does justify the illegal route. The law is not the supreme good.
    Sure it does. You asked what I proposed (in a rhetorical sense), I responded with what appears to be the legal avenues for complaints of this nature.

    This abuse of power you speak of is a purely subjective conclusion. In any case, I can't agree with the notion that publicly incriminating oneself by releasing national security information is a more rational route than the legally prescribed alternative.

    Perhaps on a personal or ideological level. Merely claiming abuse doesn't absolve him legally however.

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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    Sure it does. You asked what I proposed (in a rhetorical sense), I responded with what appears to be the legal avenues for complaints of this nature.

    This abuse of power you speak of is a purely subjective conclusion. In any case, I can't agree with the notion that publicly incriminating oneself by releasing national security information is a more rational route than the legally prescribed alternative.

    Perhaps on a personal or ideological level. Merely claiming abuse doesn't absolve him legally however.
    No, you are purposely avoiding the point. It is illogical to argue that someone who wants to shed light on a (perceived) abuse of power rely on the very institution that is committing the (perceived) abuse of power to honestly address that (perceived) abuse in secret, particularly when that institution has made it clear that they see no problem with their behavior.

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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    No, you are purposely avoiding the point. It is illogical to argue that someone who wants to shed light on a (perceived) abuse of power rely on the very institution that is committing the (perceived) abuse of power to honestly address that (perceived) abuse in secret, particularly when that institution has made it clear that they see no problem with their behavior.
    The Inspector General? Congressional committees? Snowden had avenues available that were not directly involved or obviously biased towards the practices he took issue with. Regardless, as stated earlier, the likelihood of not getting the desired result justifies his actions on a personal, not a legal level.

  7. #17
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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    The Inspector General? Congressional committees? Snowden had avenues available that were not directly involved or obviously biased towards the practices he took issue with. Regardless, as stated earlier, the likelihood of not getting the desired result justifies his actions on a personal, not a legal level.

    Clapper and McCullough are NSA heads and were testifying before a Senate Committee led by Wyden and Udall inquiring into alleged snooping/spying/surveillance within the USA. They were inquiring if any of these abuses of power were actually occurring. Clapper and McCullough both lied and said no surveillance of US citizens was occurring. This particular program PRISM started before 2007 and the Senate committee where the lies occurred was in 2012. These "foxes in the henhouse" are the ones you think Snowden should have gone through using the proper channels. Wink at the ostrich you're making eye contact with.

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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    The Inspector General? Congressional committees? Snowden had avenues available that were not directly involved or obviously biased towards the practices he took issue with.
    The Inspector General of what? The NSA? The same organization that implemented the program? No.

    The same Congressional committees that were already aware of the program and continued to approve it? No.

    Again, you are proposing that someone trust the institution he is accusing of abusing their power to seriously evaluate their behavior in private. Then, you casually say that he had "avenues" to do about this in another way without seeming to know anything about those "other ways". That is absurd and lazy.

    Regardless, as stated earlier, the likelihood of not getting the desired result justifies his actions on a personal, not a legal level.
    It may absolve him on a legal level - that remains to be seen. On ethical grounds, it certainly does.

  9. #19
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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    Don't know the details of the hearing you're referring to. If true, that fact still obviously doesn't absolve Snowden from his own legal responsibilities.
    Abuses of the law destroy the moral authority of the law, and with it any need to obey it.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

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    Re: is edward snowden a hero or traitor?

    Quote Originally Posted by ModerateGOP View Post
    Who believes that Snowden is a traitor or a hero or maybe you think he's a plant for something larger?

    Many people believe that he is a hero, but those loyal to and working in government sense that Snowden is a traitor for leaking secrets...

    I believe he is a traitor who used his position for personal gain and 15 mins of fame.
    I hope he ain't a plant for something larger. As it stands, I consider him hero. He has alerted the People to the gross misconduct of action by the government against our rights; and there is no higher form of patriotism than that.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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