View Poll Results: HOW MANY IRAQIS DIED?

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  • 1,000-5,000

    2 3.92%
  • 5,000-50,000

    2 3.92%
  • 50,000-100,000

    12 23.53%
  • 100,000-1,000,000+

    35 68.63%
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Thread: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

  1. #551
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    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    You see, this is what I mean by the default protestor....



    The failure was in 1991. 2003 was inevitable.



    "They" said we were dictator supporters. What did we show "them" in 2003? What have we shown them since during the Arab Spring and even with Syria? "They" say a lot about America. It's what "they" do. It's the price we pay for being history's victor playing their rules while all others fell to the side. People think far less negative about Iraq these days, what with Muslims demonstrating how they behave without outside forces removing their dictators. By the way, we have been what "they" say we are ever since we agreed to cross the Atlantic to fight Germans. So what? Our goal should be more than that and to live up to our preach. Of course, when the Syrian rebels turn and slaughter "inferior" tribes "they" will say more. Incidentally, "they" were also saying a lot when we were riding the fence in regards to Libya. Don't worry about what the world's losers have to say about America. Until America carves the Third World up into a disastrous border mess, starts a couple World Wars, and starts a Cold War, "they" can't say much.



    Iran's been economically crippled for some time and its leaders used Iraq to oppress its people further, especially when they riot at elections. The nuclear program isn't new and has been around since the Shah. This too was inevitable.



    Al-Queda is a crippled mess, afraid to show its head and relies on the many others who do in their name simply to be noticed. They have merely scooped up from the region what the mess in Iraq revealed. Or do you think the Sunni traveled to Iraq to slaughter Shia because they admired Saddam Hussein? Like I stated before, the more the world changes the more this civilization will produce radicals. And as they realize that Islam has failed as an organizing tool they will simply be what they were raised to be. Let them lash out regionally, die for Allah and Al-Queda. Future generations that grow up in democracies where they have healthy outlets to voice opposition will seek the "sword" far less than their recent ancestors. We get crazies even in our Democracy. The trick is to create an environment that doesn't breed violent extremist organizations.




    Nothing after any war changes the number of dead or the money spent. We aren't getting anybody back from Afghanistan. We aren't getting anybody back from Beirut. From Vietnam. From Korea. From World Wars. Complaining about this for wars we don't approve of is selective. "Nothing that happens now" is a protestors chant to cling to his protests no matter what. It's this attitude that brands the dead as being in vain.
    Not default, but what I believe to be true.

    1991 may not have been a success, but Chalibi played a role in that as well, making Bush's alliance with him even more mind boggling. But Bush sr. Knew better than to go into Iraq to stay. He knew he need some in power, and to create a vacuum. Bush sr rarely gets the credit he deserves.

    No matter Iran's economic status, a friendly Iraq helps them. And they do have some influence (not control) in Iraq.

    Nor is al Qaeda destroyed. They weren't large to begin with. They didn't send an army to hit the towers. But they got serious training in Iraq. Grew their numbers. Gained in status with our help. And did more to us then they ever could had we not invaded.

    And no one suggests we can bring anyone back. But to prevent future mistakes, we must recognize the problem. Reckless spending of human lives should be harder to do.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #552
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    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Very true. I would concede that no expert could safely assume where things have been retarded or sped up. But some things are generally certain....

    - The House of Saud was never going to release a little power to low level elections prior to the pressure it got emanating from Iraqi elections.

    - If we can agree that radicals around the region were watching and thusly traveled to disrupt Iraqi democracy while killing Shia, then we should assume that moderates and reformers were also watching and emerged in their own countries.

    - The reason neighboring countries to Iraq refused to seal their borders was that a Democratic Iraq is bad for Dictator business.

    - The Arab Spring was not going to happen prior to Iraq.





    With so much of this region rising up against their dictators and demanding Democracy I don't understand this.
    Because it s not related to Iraq. And the outcomes may be worse than what was there.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #553
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    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not default, but what I believe to be true.

    1991 may not have been a success, but Chalibi played a role in that as well, making Bush's alliance with him even more mind boggling. But Bush sr. Knew better than to go into Iraq to stay. He knew he need some in power, and to create a vacuum. Bush sr rarely gets the credit he deserves.
    Using a dictator to fill a vacuum was Cold War tactics and sufficed because those that were empowered to make decisions lacked vision and understanding of where they were in history. Instead of doing exactly what we did with World War II, they stopped short of the dictator, took the easy way out, and encouraged the people to rise up only to be slaughtered while we threw ourselves a parade for victory. Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and the rest were wrong in 1991 and they helped to create the UN mission that would later give Osama Bin Laden excuses as Iraqis starved and we escalated troop strengths in the holy land to contain him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No matter Iran's economic status, a friendly Iraq helps them. And they do have some influence (not control) in Iraq.
    And so it should. All of those nations have to trade and get along. This doesn't mean that Iran has influence over anything in regards to Iraq policy. Both countries are more nationalistic than you think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Nor is al Qaeda destroyed.
    Is that the goal? Because we still have Nazis running around here and there too. This is generational. Always has been. You don't spend a century shaking this region up and hope to fix it over night. The goal is not to destroy terrorism. It is to make it more manageable just like it is everywhere else in the world.

    But what really did they do to us? The Stock Market recovered within days. Some people died for which we now know Osama Bin Laden got to see his beloved Islamic region erupt into chants for democracy before he died. Contrary to what protestors like to state, he did not get what he wanted. He did not see America react militarily so that the region could rise up and re-create Islam in a Caliphate's image. He failed and got the opposite and if he could live a hundred years perhaps he would see a very different Middle East where his kind can't thrive and organize.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Reckless spending of human lives should be harder to do.
    Well that's true.

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    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    As this thread is about Iraq, aren't you the one diverting? And can you point to anywhere that I gave support for arming the rebels?
    Point is you're whining about something that's already done. Why aren't you complaining about the current happenings in the Middle East?

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    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Because it s not related to Iraq. And the outcomes may be worse than what was there.
    But it is related to Iraq. If one is going to say that our invasion in Iraq created radicals and they traveled to Iraq to fight then one must also acknowledge that moderates also have television sets and were watching Iraqi developments. Do you actually think that the first time that Arabs voted in Arab history went unnoticed by the reformers? Two months after their first election without support, a Tunisian man sets himself on fire over oppression and sparks the Arab Spring and you think they are oblivious from each other?

    I used to state that democracy in the region starts with Iraq and people would tell me no way. Now that it is occurring here and there I am told that they aren't related by those same people? C'mon. At least give the sequence of events its credibility. The only way they are not related is that the U.S. didn't have to send in the Marines. Muslims elsewhere finally did for themselves what Iraqis are already doing on their television sets.

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    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Point is you're whining about something that's already done. Why aren't you complaining about the current happenings in the Middle East?
    He may be discussing Syria on a thread that isn't about Iraqi death tolls. That being the bigger point makes your point pointless.

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  7. #557
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    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Point is you're whining about something that's already done. Why aren't you complaining about the current happenings in the Middle East?
    That is the crux of his complaint. It looks like we are going to do the same thing again, because the propaganda wizards have convinced people like yourself that it is OK to kill wholesale as long as the buzzwords work. You know freedom, democracy, human rights, and all the other mantras that have been proven to be horse manure. Our actions show over 100,000 dead in Iraq. No big deal, "they hate us for our freedoms."(GWBush, the first liar)

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    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    He may be discussing Syria on a thread that isn't about Iraqi death tolls. That being the bigger point makes your point pointless.
    No, what's pointless is complaining about a war that ended a year a half ago, being negative and having no solutions to any of the problems.

  9. #559
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    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    No, what's pointless is complaining about a war that ended a year a half ago, being negative and having no solutions to any of the problems.
    Well that would be a point, but drilling him for why he isn't discussing Syria on this Thread seems pointless.

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    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    That is the crux of his complaint. It looks like we are going to do the same thing again, because the propaganda wizards have convinced people like yourself that it is OK to kill wholesale as long as the buzzwords work. You know freedom, democracy, human rights, and all the other mantras that have been proven to be horse manure. Our actions show over 100,000 dead in Iraq. No big deal, "they hate us for our freedoms."(GWBush, the first liar)
    Well, I'm pretty sure we aren't going to invade Syria. There's no tactical advantage for getting intimately involved. And I'm pretty sure that if you were Islamic you would strap a bomb to your chest. Relax fella.

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