View Poll Results: HOW MANY IRAQIS DIED?

Voters
51. You may not vote on this poll
  • 1,000-5,000

    2 3.92%
  • 5,000-50,000

    2 3.92%
  • 50,000-100,000

    12 23.53%
  • 100,000-1,000,000+

    35 68.63%
Page 55 of 60 FirstFirst ... 5455354555657 ... LastLast
Results 541 to 550 of 599

Thread: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

  1. #541
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Consider what? I've read too many books on the Middle East and Islam to agree that Democracy won't work. I've seen too much over the years from this region to believe that everything I see is made up and not really happening. I've studied too much into the region to allow Democrats their ignorant whine about Iraqi democracy and Republicans their ignorant whine about the Arab Spring. And I've certainly studied too much to believe that Iraq had something to do with "WMD" or simple "oil." Protestors have looked for any reason imaginable to legitimize their own inadequacies to understanding this region. First they won't welcome us and they did. Then they won't vote and they did. Then they would erupt into civil war and they didn't. Then they won't vote without our security and they turned out in greater numbers. And now with every bomb that goes off in Baghdad it comes down to either "its over" or "we don't know."

    Funny thing - The joke in Islam is that the Sunni tribe actually started democracy amongst the elders to decide leadership (Caliphate) after Muhammad. The Shia refused this and demanded a monarchical system based on Muhammad's blood line, in effect creating dictators. Today it is the Sunni tribe that is struggling with the Arab Spring after almost a century of dictators and it is the Shia in Iran that have been practicing a sort of democracy since 1980.




    Depends on the country. And of course Bush and Co. had no idea what they were doing. The Rumsfeld Coven made sure of that when they threw out the CENTCOM plan in favor of their own "No Plan." But they did stumble into what needed to happen. They just did it very poorly and without an understanding of the region. Bush, however, did talk about democracy in the greater region as a result to he UN before the invasion. Whether he believed it or not or even knew what day it was, regional and cultural experts have long talked and wrote about it. Iraq was a good place to do it. Talk about closed minded. It was and still is in the White House.
    I never argued democracy won't work. I argued it was moving that way prior to invasion, and that invasion may have slowed it down.

    We don't disagree on the history, but the method. Any country that puts the self up as righteous invades, spreading anything, no matter how good, runs far afield of reason and morality. It's hubris. And leads to a fall of some kind.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #542
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I don't understand what you wrote here. I stated that there was no country or regional occurrences that was forming into a shift in governments. This is true. Egypt stands in front of the rest in terms of having some voices for liberal reform off and on, but this was never a threat to the dictators. When individuals became that threat they simply got jailed or exiled. But there was no democratic movement in the works prior to 2003 in any Arab nation. The first real regional move was in 2010 two months after Iraqis safely voted without international security.


    Sure. I realize that. But I also realize the historical implications of what Iraqis have done. This is why I won't jump to "failure" the moment perfection isn't realized or if they stumble along the way. Like I stated, Napoleon and Hitler are Europe's contribution to getting Democracy imperfect.
    The failure was invading in he first place; it showed us to be what they said we were. It helped Iran. It helped al Qaeda. It hurt us. It cost too much both in lives and money. Nothing that happens now changes any of this.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #543
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:13 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,991

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I never argued democracy won't work. I argued it was moving that way prior to invasion, and that invasion may have slowed it down.
    And I've not read anything that legitimately suggests that Democracy was on its way and that it has been slowed down. If anything it pushed leaders elsewhere to ease oppressions and eventually lead to the Arab Spring. There is no way the most significant government altering event in Middle East recent history wasn't going to affect a Democratic change in a region that has in the past voiced for it in massive rallies. If there is one thing that is constant in the Middle East it is that Muslims, especially the Sunni, tend to follow each other. This is in keeping with Islamic Community or "Ummah." They all voiced for democracies in 1920~21? and they all got stuck with colonists. They all rallied behind military coups in the early 1950s and got stuck with dictators. It was only a matter of time before others in the Ummah followed Iraq down the new path.

    And when it comes to anything else you cannot rely on "intel" reports for any assessing because they either forecast failure or merely produce the occurrence of the day. It's a military and civilian maxim. You probably know this. It covers their asses, while not really doing their job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    We don't disagree on the history, but the method. Any country that puts the self up as righteous invades, spreading anything, no matter how good, runs far afield of reason and morality. It's hubris. And leads to a fall of some kind.
    See I don't fault the method, merely the way they did it. Nobody should invade a country with the bare minimum without a plan on how to occupy. But that's exactly what needed to happen to get Congress to OK it. Hubris has been a White House fault since Truman. Instead of the WMD falsehoods, it should have been talked up for greater reasons. They could have started with it being an excuse for Bin Laden and who knows who else to follow.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  4. #544
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Last Seen
    07-16-14 @ 01:18 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    47,571

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I never argued democracy won't work. I argued it was moving that way prior to invasion, and that invasion may have slowed it down.

    We don't disagree on the history, but the method. Any country that puts the self up as righteous invades, spreading anything, no matter how good, runs far afield of reason and morality. It's hubris. And leads to a fall of some kind.
    Really? How so?

    Do you actually think Saddam Hussein would invite "democracy" into HIS country? That's actually funny!

  5. #545
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    And I've not read anything that legitimately suggests that Democracy was on its way and that it has been slowed down. If anything it pushed leaders elsewhere to ease oppressions and eventually lead to the Arab Spring. There is no way the most significant government altering event in Middle East recent history wasn't going to affect a Democratic change in a region that has in the past voiced for it in massive rallies. If there is one thing that is constant in the Middle East it is that Muslims, especially the Sunni, tend to follow each other. This is in keeping with Islamic Community or "Ummah." They all voiced for democracies in 1920~21? and they all got stuck with colonists. They all rallied behind military coups in the early 1950s and got stuck with dictators. It was only a matter of time before others in the Ummah followed Iraq down the new path.

    And when it comes to anything else you cannot rely on "intel" reports for any assessing because they either forecast failure or merely produce the occurrence of the day. It's a military and civilian maxim. You probably know this. It covers their asses, while not really doing their job.



    See I don't fault the method, merely the way they did it. Nobody should invade a country with the bare minimum without a plan on how to occupy. But that's exactly what needed to happen to get Congress to OK it. Hubris has been a White House fault since Truman. Instead of the WMD falsehoods, it should have been talked up for greater reasons. They could have started with it being an excuse for Bin Laden and who knows who else to follow.
    It may have effected it for the worse on a couple of fronts. It entrenched hard liners in Iran and slowed down reform there. In other areas it may have sped up and destabilized, which may lead to even worse changes. We can't be sure. These actions can't be reliably predicted and as such, are risky.

    No matter how long hubris ha been an side, it is still what it is. And yes, if Bush and his people had made an honest case, there would less sustain on my part. But it would still been the wrong move.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  6. #546
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    Really? How so?

    Do you actually think Saddam Hussein would invite "democracy" into HIS country? That's actually funny!
    I said the region, not Iraq. Iraq was merely degrading. Less and less capable of any threat each day.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  7. #547
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Last Seen
    07-16-14 @ 01:18 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    47,571

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It may have effected it for the worse on a couple of fronts. It entrenched hard liners in Iran and slowed down reform there. In other areas it may have sped up and destabilized, which may lead to even worse changes. We can't be sure. These actions can't be reliably predicted and as such, are risky.

    No matter how long hubris ha been an side, it is still what it is. And yes, if Bush and his people had made an honest case, there would less sustain on my part. But it would still been the wrong move.
    You're just trying to divert attention away from the fact that Obama is going to (or already has) be arming rebels in Syria that he really doesn't know anything about. That and the other "issues" surrounding this administration as of late. That must be why you keep crying about a war that is already done and over with, instead of worrying about what is happening right NOW.

  8. #548
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    You're just trying to divert attention away from the fact that Obama is going to (or already has) be arming rebels in Syria that he really doesn't know anything about. That and the other "issues" surrounding this administration as of late. That must be why you keep crying about a war that is already done and over with, instead of worrying about what is happening right NOW.
    As this thread is about Iraq, aren't you the one diverting? And can you point to anywhere that I gave support for arming the rebels?

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #549
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:13 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,991

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The failure was invading in the first place; it showed us to be what they said we were. It helped Iran. It helped al Qaeda. It hurt us. It cost too much both in lives and money. Nothing that happens now changes any of this.
    You see, this is what I mean by the default protestor....

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    ....failure was invading...
    The failure was in 1991. 2003 was inevitable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    it showed us to be what they said we were
    "They" said we were dictator supporters. What did we show "them" in 2003? What have we shown them since during the Arab Spring and even with Syria? "They" say a lot about America. It's what "they" do. It's the price we pay for being history's victor playing their rules while all others fell to the side. People think far less negative about Iraq these days, what with Muslims demonstrating how they behave without outside forces removing their dictators. By the way, we have been what "they" say we are ever since we agreed to cross the Atlantic to fight Germans. So what? Our goal should be more than that and to live up to our preach. Of course, when the Syrian rebels turn and slaughter "inferior" tribes "they" will say more. Incidentally, "they" were also saying a lot when we were riding the fence in regards to Libya. Don't worry about what the world's losers have to say about America. Until America carves the Third World up into a disastrous border mess, starts a couple World Wars, and starts a Cold War, "they" can't say much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It helped Iran
    Iran's been economically crippled for some time and its leaders used Iraq to oppress its people further, especially when they riot at elections. The nuclear program isn't new and has been around since the Shah. This too was inevitable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It helped al Qaeda
    Al-Queda is a crippled mess, afraid to show its head and relies on the many others who do in their name simply to be noticed. They have merely scooped up from the region what the mess in Iraq revealed. Or do you think the Sunni traveled to Iraq to slaughter Shia because they admired Saddam Hussein? Like I stated before, the more the world changes the more this civilization will produce radicals. And as they realize that Islam has failed as an organizing tool they will simply be what they were raised to be. Let them lash out regionally, die for Allah and Al-Queda. Future generations that grow up in democracies where they have healthy outlets to voice opposition will seek the "sword" far less than their recent ancestors. We get crazies even in our Democracy. The trick is to create an environment that doesn't breed violent extremist organizations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Nothing that happens now changes any of this.
    Nothing after any war changes the number of dead or the money spent. We aren't getting anybody back from Afghanistan. We aren't getting anybody back from Beirut. From Vietnam. From Korea. From World Wars. Complaining about this for wars we don't approve of is selective. "Nothing that happens now" is a protestors chant to cling to his protests no matter what. It's this attitude that brands the dead as being in vain.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  10. #550
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:13 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,991

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It may have effected it for the worse on a couple of fronts. It entrenched hard liners in Iran and slowed down reform there. In other areas it may have sped up and destabilized, which may lead to even worse changes. We can't be sure. These actions can't be reliably predicted and as such, are risky.
    Very true. I would concede that no expert could safely assume where things have been retarded or sped up. But some things are generally certain....

    - The House of Saud was never going to release a little power to low level elections prior to the pressure it got emanating from Iraqi elections.

    - If we can agree that radicals around the region were watching and thusly traveled to disrupt Iraqi democracy while killing Shia, then we should assume that moderates and reformers were also watching and emerged in their own countries.

    - The reason neighboring countries to Iraq refused to seal their borders was that a Democratic Iraq is bad for Dictator business.

    - The Arab Spring was not going to happen prior to Iraq.



    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    ....But it would still been the wrong move.
    With so much of this region rising up against their dictators and demanding Democracy I don't understand this.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

Page 55 of 60 FirstFirst ... 5455354555657 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •