View Poll Results: HOW MANY IRAQIS DIED?

Voters
51. You may not vote on this poll
  • 1,000-5,000

    2 3.92%
  • 5,000-50,000

    2 3.92%
  • 50,000-100,000

    12 23.53%
  • 100,000-1,000,000+

    35 68.63%
Page 54 of 60 FirstFirst ... 4445253545556 ... LastLast
Results 531 to 540 of 599

Thread: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

  1. #531
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,986

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Ou do a nice job of laying it out. Nothing there is anything I didn't know, so most of it was not hat valuable for me. However, it is not a choice between isolation and imperialism. We can recognize their sovereign right to work out their own problems and be isolationistic.
    I'm guessing that there really isn't anything anybody can say on this site that would benefit you. It's a trend that most people here follow. They just log on to complain or to spout pre-conceived ideas of things without any prior study, forethought, or consideration. Then that opinion becomes set in brittle concrete.

    You are right, however, about the emboldened. But you aren't recognizing that this is exactly what we are doing today. Europeans created this bad border mess and then simply walked away denying all responsibility. The reason they could walk away was that the technological time in history allowed it and they had another country that would be left holding the bag. Through the Cold War, the U.S. and the Soviets propped up dictators in the name of stability and camp loyalty. After the Berlin Wall came down, both walked away and left the Middle East to fester under those dictators. By 2003, the Middle East was left without the option of sorting out any of their own problems. And unlike the Europeans, the U.S. doesn't have the convenience of passing the bag on to another to hold and to take the blame.

    There is no isolationalism anymore. The world is too globalized. In fact, it is so globalized that a disease can cross borders, infect another country, and affect commerce and trade. Bad bank business can wreck the world into financial disaster for years and years. Dictators who have convinced their people that the true enemy lies across the ocean eventually give their population license to breed radicals and extremists until one day New York City blows up. Working out their own problems is exactly the opportunity we have offered. Removing Hussein kicked off the notion of Arab democracy and ended that UN mission that Osama Bin Laden used to justify 9/11. The Arab Spring represents Arab Muslims sorting out their own problems. However, we have to be vigilante of the "Syrias" that threaten trade partners and defense partners and stand to blow up beyond its borders.

    Isolationalism = U.S.A. prior to WWI

    Imperialism = U.S.A. after WWII until the end of the Cold War.

    So what are we doing today when the result is a Muslim civilization getting the opportunity to "work out their own problems?" You state that its not a choice, but war protestors and supporters are constantly preaching exactly that.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  2. #532
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I'm guessing that there really isn't anything anybody can say on this site that would benefit you. It's a trend that most people here follow. They just log on to complain or to spout pre-conceived ideas of things without any prior study, forethought, or consideration. Then that opinion becomes set in brittle concrete.

    You are right, however, about the emboldened. But you aren't recognizing that this is exactly what we are doing today. Europeans created this bad border mess and then simply walked away denying all responsibility. The reason they could walk away was that the technological time in history allowed it and they had another country that would be left holding the bag. Through the Cold War, the U.S. and the Soviets propped up dictators in the name of stability and camp loyalty. After the Berlin Wall came down, both walked away and left the Middle East to fester under those dictators. By 2003, the Middle East was left without the option of sorting out any of their own problems. And unlike the Europeans, the U.S. doesn't have the convenience of passing the bag on to another to hold and to take the blame.

    There is no isolationalism anymore. The world is too globalized. In fact, it is so globalized that a disease can cross borders, infect another country, and affect commerce and trade. Bad bank business can wreck the world into financial disaster for years and years. Dictators who have convinced their people that the true enemy lies across the ocean eventually give their population license to breed radicals and extremists until one day New York City blows up. Working out their own problems is exactly the opportunity we have offered. Removing Hussein kicked off the notion of Arab democracy and ended that UN mission that Osama Bin Laden used to justify 9/11. The Arab Spring represents Arab Muslims sorting out their own problems. However, we have to be vigilante of the "Syrias" that threaten trade partners and defense partners and stand to blow up beyond its borders.

    Isolationalism = U.S.A. prior to WWI

    Imperialism = U.S.A. after WWII until the end of the Cold War.

    So what are we doing today when the result is a Muslim civilization getting the opportunity to "work out their own problems?" You state that its not a choice, but war protestors and supporters are constantly preaching exactly that.
    I'm open to information, but you have started with an assumption that I and others are ignorant of the history, and that if we learned, we'd change our minds. But as I and others are not ignorant of history, that approach likely falls flat.

    And no, we still haven't learned our lessons in the ME. We've just maintained a status quo. Bush caused serious harm, and even if we made all the right moves, something unlikely, we'd still pay for this one beyond our life time.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  3. #533
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,986

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    If you want me to look up the old articles again I will. Let me know.

    But even to have democracy is their choice, something they fight for. Not something given.
    Any old articles you find will be insignificant and as desperate as they were when the authors wrote them. They were written to support the protests and held no evidence of a regional, much less a country, shift.

    Well they are welcome to deny it to themselves and re-establish a dictator if its something that can't be given. Do you think Iraq is looking for another dictator? They have had years to reverse their gains and have still chosen to defy the radicals. Seems to me that they are fighting all the time for their democracy against Sunni radicals who want Baghdad back. The only difference between them and Germans is that Germans were of one tribe (especially after disposing of all those Jews.) We trusted and gave them back their democracy and they carried forward without internal civil disorder and tribal friction. You see Iraqis (mostly Shia and Kurds) making this choice everyday against Sunni zealots so what is your point when you act as if they are forced to have democracy in Iraq? Are you voicing for the Sunni radicals? If the Sunni were the majority in Iraq, you would see a lot less violence in Iraq.

    As far as the rest of the region, the Arab Spring seems to be all about that democratic choice even as they bicker and kill amongst the tribes over how to develop it. Excuse their mistakes along the way. It's not like they've elected a Napoleon or a Hitler yet. In the end, they will either figure out how to get along or they will slaughter until lines are re-drawn. Most of the headlines will look for the slaughter.

    Another point, remember Yugoslavia. The Slavic states were folded up within a single border and forced to behave under dictators after WWI. As soon as the Cold War ended the Soviets released its grip. The tribes spoke out, dissolved the one border, and commenced to cleanse their areas of the other tribes. Ethnic cleansing and genocide commenced until president Clinton involved the military and forced Europe to act. My point is that these Frankenstein's Monster nations don't fix themselves. It's a high stakes game that needs a referee. And in the age of nuclear ambition from religious tribes in the MENA, it's a game the world can't afford an absent U.S.

    Here's another mention. Pakistan. A nuclear country that can't and won't deal with the festering tribal radicalism inside that constantly threatens India and now acts as a base for extremists who can't fathom an Afghanistan that is moving into the future. You think that Pakistan will sort itself out? How long until Iran gets the nuke, thereby, ensuring that the House of Saud will insist on getting theirs? Maybe Egypt next as a powerhouse in the region. And to protect against Sunni and Shia crazies, Turkey will need some. This region is not to be left alone when trying to sort itself out, especially after the West did everything possible to screw it up. We don't get to just walk away. Europeans do that. If we can get China involved for a couple decades maybe we can scoot out the door and leave it to them.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  4. #534
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Any old articles you find will be insignificant and as desperate as they were when the authors wrote them. They were written to support the protests and held no evidence of a regional, much less a country, shift.

    Well they are welcome to deny it to themselves and re-establish a dictator if its something that can't be given. Do you think Iraq is looking for another dictator? They have had years to reverse their gains and have still chosen to defy the radicals. Seems to me that they are fighting all the time for their democracy against Sunni radicals who want Baghdad back. The only difference between them and Germans is that Germans were of one tribe (especially after disposing of all those Jews.) We trusted and gave them back their democracy and they carried forward without internal civil disorder and tribal friction. You see Iraqis (mostly Shia and Kurds) making this choice everyday against Sunni zealots so what is your point when you act as if they are forced to have democracy in Iraq? Are you voicing for the Sunni radicals? If the Sunni were the majority in Iraq, you would see a lot less violence in Iraq.

    As far as the rest of the region, the Arab Spring seems to be all about that democratic choice even as they bicker and kill amongst the tribes over how to develop it. Excuse their mistakes along the way. It's not like they've elected a Napoleon or a Hitler yet. In the end, they will either figure out how to get along or they will slaughter until lines are re-drawn. Most of the headlines will look for the slaughter.

    Another point, remember Yugoslavia. The Slavic states were folded up within a single border and forced to behave under dictators after WWI. As soon as the Cold War ended the Soviets released its grip. The tribes spoke out, dissolved the one border, and commenced to cleanse their areas of the other tribes. Ethnic cleansing and genocide commenced until president Clinton involved the military and forced Europe to act. My point is that these Frankenstein's Monster nations don't fix themselves. It's a high stakes game that needs a referee. And in the age of nuclear ambition from religious tribes in the MENA, it's a game the world can't afford an absent U.S.

    Here's another mention. Pakistan. A nuclear country that can't and won't deal with the festering tribal radicalism inside that constantly threatens India and now acts as a base for extremists who can't fathom an Afghanistan that is moving into the future. You think that Pakistan will sort itself out? How long until Iran gets the nuke, thereby, ensuring that the House of Saud will insist on getting theirs? Maybe Egypt next as a powerhouse in the region. And to protect against Sunni and Shia crazies, Turkey will need some. This region is not to be left alone when trying to sort itself out, especially after the West did everything possible to screw it up. We don't get to just walk away. Europeans do that. If we can get China involved for a couple decades maybe we can scoot out the door and leave it to them.
    Odd that you complain of a closed mind and then exhibit one.

    What Iraqis look for will be up to them. We've been too close and involved to know for sure yet what will happen there without us. But whatever happens is up to them, it us. That's the point.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  5. #535
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,986

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm open to information, but you have started with an assumption that I and others are ignorant of the history, and that if we learned, we'd change our minds. But as I and others are not ignorant of history, that approach likely falls flat.
    It's up to you to change your mind. I have not seen anything from people who protest that would suggest that their understanding comes from anything other than some temporary headlines and some general bumper sticker slogans. It's like watching somebody write about WMD and why we had to take him out. These opinions rely on old protests and supports that never had any credibility for what was actually going on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And no, we still haven't learned our lessons in the ME. We've just maintained a status quo. Bush caused serious harm, and even if we made all the right moves, something unlikely, we'd still pay for this one beyond our life time.
    The status quo was to support the dictators. That was the harm. The status quo was to support Hussein under UN baby sitting. That was the harm. Taking out the dictator only revealed the mess Muslims are solely responsible for today. That's the beauty of democracy. They can't blame us anymore.

    Bush broke the status quo with Saddam Hussein. Obama, though shy and scared about it, allowed the dictators to fall one by one during the Arab Spring and no is confused about what is going on inside Syria. Syria is a mess because the West chose to go hands off instead of doing what they did in Libya. Today's status quo is to see Muslim Arabs emerge into the political 21st century with the rest of the world. The only mistake to be made is to deny legitimacy to any radical that gets elected and default to removing him. Given time, Muslims will remove him on their own in their democracies. So when you seek to ignore the Islamic culture that is responsible for all the Muslim deaths in Iraq (Syria, Tunisia, Egypt, etc.) you are merely suggesting that they were better off with Saddam Hussein...and we were better off with the UN mission....and Bin Laden was better off having his excuses.

    Who really cares if they slaughter each other? Who cares if they have dictators? Truth be told, nobody really cared until 9/11 and even then plenty of people preferred the problem to be organized into a quick hit list of a few terrorists sitting in Afghanistan. This mess was a century in the making. A few terrorists on 9/11 barely scratches the mess. They were mere symptoms.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  6. #536
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    It's up to you to change your mind. I have not seen anything from people who protest that would suggest that their understanding comes from anything other than some temporary headlines and some general bumper sticker slogans. It's like watching somebody write about WMD and why we had to take him out. These opinions rely on old protests and supports that never had any credibility for what was actually going on.



    The status quo was to support the dictators. That was the harm. The status quo was to support Hussein under UN baby sitting. That was the harm. Taking out the dictator only revealed the mess Muslims are solely responsible for today. That's the beauty of democracy. They can't blame us anymore.

    Bush broke the status quo with Saddam Hussein. Obama, though shy and scared about it, allowed the dictators to fall one by one during the Arab Spring and no is confused about what is going on inside Syria. Syria is a mess because the West chose to go hands off instead of doing what they did in Libya. Today's status quo is to see Muslim Arabs emerge into the political 21st century with the rest of the world. The only mistake to be made is to deny legitimacy to any radical that gets elected and default to removing him. Given time, Muslims will remove him on their own in their democracies. So when you seek to ignore the Islamic culture that is responsible for all the Muslim deaths in Iraq (Syria, Tunisia, Egypt, etc.) you are merely suggesting that they were better off with Saddam Hussein...and we were better off with the UN mission....and Bin Laden was better off having his excuses.

    Who really cares if they slaughter each other? Who cares if they have dictators? Truth be told, nobody really cared until 9/11 and even then plenty of people preferred the problem to be organized into a quick hit list of a few terrorists sitting in Afghanistan. This mess was a century in the making. A few terrorists on 9/11 barely scratches the mess. They were mere symptoms.
    There is the possibility that your own bias blinds you. It's possible for all of us, but don't complain if you aren't going to at lest consider.

    It's also not about caring or not caring. It has been argued that we merely added to their woes. Bring war is no walk in the park. And don't kid yourself, those who ordered the war had little to no concern about the people of Iraq. It is hubris to think we can make the world better by invading countries.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  7. #537
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,986

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Odd that you complain of a closed mind and then exhibit one.
    What do you mean? What of your statements have I closed my mind to? You said we forced democracy. I said they have not gone back to the dictator system so "forcing" is a radical term to support protest. In fact they had a much higher voter turn out last time without international security and relying on their own. The minute Iraqis declare their democracy over and throw a parade for their new dictator you will have an argument. Until then it's just protestor dribble.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What Iraqis look for will be up to them. We've been too close and involved to know for sure yet what will happen there without us. But whatever happens is up to them, it us. That's the point.
    That has always been the point and they have been without us for years, save some stragglers. It was never about conquering or forcing anything. Installing another dictator would have been forcing. Our mission was to remove Hussein and the UN mission, provide opportunity for democracy, and leave. That's exactly what we did. The whole thing behind a democracy is to give them a choice. You see them struggle against Sunni radicals to develop their growing democracy everyday. They have chosen. This isn't 2005 anymore. The same old protests don't work to create a sound argument. You protestors have gone from "never" to "we don't know." Just stand back and assess the regional situation for yourself. When you and others state that "it can't be given," you are obviously wrong. If it ends in failure it will be their failure, not ours. But either way, democracy has been introduced everywhere. With over 120 democracies created since 1900, you think this entire region is simply going to reject it? This is exactly how we relieve ourselves of responsibility for them. If their culture can't figure out how to create a healthier environment for their stubborn tribes then they are unredeemable.

    And by the way, every time a bomb goes off in Baghdad the media is sure to tell you and paint it as a national crisis, despite the fact that Muslim on Muslim murder is a regional pastime. It's only a matter of time before Egypt erupts against its "inferior" tribes. The minorities have already began scampering out of the cities. of course if we don't want to see this then we fall back on the handy dandy dictator who eventually dies and causes disruption in resource flow and the creation of hundreds of more radical groups seeking to blame anything but their own culture.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  8. #538
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    What do you mean? What of your statements have I closed my mind to? You said we forced democracy. I said they have not gone back to the dictator system so "forcing" is a radical term to support protest. In fact they had a much higher voter turn out last time without international security and relying on their own. The minute Iraqis declare their democracy over and throw a parade for their new dictator you will have an argument. Until then it's just protestor dribble.




    That has always been the point and they have been without us for years, save some stragglers. It was never about conquering or forcing anything. Installing another dictator would have been forcing. Our mission was to remove Hussein and the UN mission, provide opportunity for democracy, and leave. That's exactly what we did. The whole thing behind a democracy is to give them a choice. You see them struggle against Sunni radicals to develop their growing democracy everyday. They have chosen. This isn't 2005 anymore. The same old protests don't work to create a sound argument. You protestors have gone from "never" to "we don't know." Just stand back and assess the regional situation for yourself. When you and others state that "it can't be given," you are obviously wrong. If it ends in failure it will be their failure, not ours. But either way, democracy has been introduced everywhere. With over 120 democracies created since 1900, you think this entire region is simply going to reject it? This is exactly how we relieve ourselves of responsibility for them. If their culture can't figure out how to create a healthier environment for their stubborn tribes then they are unredeemable.

    And by the way, every time a bomb goes off in Baghdad the media is sure to tell you and paint it as a national crisis, despite the fact that Muslim on Muslim murder is a regional pastime. It's only a matter of time before Egypt erupts against its "inferior" tribes. The minorities have already began scampering out of the cities. of course if we don't want to see this then we fall back on the handy dandy dictator who eventually dies and causes disruption in resource flow and the creation of hundreds of more radical groups seeking to blame anything but their own culture.
    You made a judgement about information on democracy moving in he region before Iraq without knowing anything about what might be offered.

    And no, we've been too close for them to have been without us.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #539
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,986

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    There is the possibility that your own bias blinds you. It's possible for all of us, but don't complain if you aren't going to at lest consider.
    Consider what? I've read too many books on the Middle East and Islam to agree that Democracy won't work. I've seen too much over the years from this region to believe that everything I see is made up and not really happening. I've studied too much into the region to allow Democrats their ignorant whine about Iraqi democracy and Republicans their ignorant whine about the Arab Spring. And I've certainly studied too much to believe that Iraq had something to do with "WMD" or simple "oil." Protestors have looked for any reason imaginable to legitimize their own inadequacies to understanding this region. First they won't welcome us and they did. Then they won't vote and they did. Then they would erupt into civil war and they didn't. Then they won't vote without our security and they turned out in greater numbers. And now with every bomb that goes off in Baghdad it comes down to either "its over" or "we don't know."

    Funny thing - The joke in Islam is that the Sunni tribe actually started democracy amongst the elders to decide leadership (Caliphate) after Muhammad. The Shia refused this and demanded a monarchical system based on Muhammad's blood line, in effect creating dictators. Today it is the Sunni tribe that is struggling with the Arab Spring after almost a century of dictators and it is the Shia in Iran that have been practicing a sort of democracy since 1980.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It's also not about caring or not caring. It has been argued that we merely added to their woes. Bring war is no walk in the park. And don't kid yourself, those who ordered the war had little to no concern about the people of Iraq. It is hubris to think we can make the world better by invading countries.
    Depends on the country. And of course Bush and Co. had no idea what they were doing. The Rumsfeld Coven made sure of that when they threw out the CENTCOM plan in favor of their own "No Plan." But they did stumble into what needed to happen. They just did it very poorly and without an understanding of the region. Bush, however, did talk about democracy in the greater region as a result to he UN before the invasion. Whether he believed it or not or even knew what day it was, regional and cultural experts have long talked and wrote about it. Iraq was a good place to do it. Talk about closed minded. It was and still is in the White House.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  10. #540
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 03:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,986

    Re: How Many Iraqis Died in the Iraq War?[W:496]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You made a judgement about information on democracy moving in he region before Iraq without knowing anything about what might be offered.
    I don't understand what you wrote here. I stated that there was no country or regional occurrences that was forming into a shift in governments. This is true. Egypt stands in front of the rest in terms of having some voices for liberal reform off and on, but this was never a threat to the dictators. When individuals became that threat they simply got jailed or exiled. But there was no democratic movement in the works prior to 2003 in any Arab nation. The first real regional move was in 2010 two months after Iraqis safely voted without international security.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And no, we've been too close for them to have been without us.
    Sure. I realize that. But I also realize the historical implications of what Iraqis have done. This is why I won't jump to "failure" the moment perfection isn't realized or if they stumble along the way. Like I stated, Napoleon and Hitler are Europe's contribution to getting Democracy imperfect.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

Page 54 of 60 FirstFirst ... 4445253545556 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •